Importance of University

[Majokel]

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[kamakiri]

Going to college will help your chances for success immeasurably.

You should make every attempt to attend and graduate. Your future really does depend on it. I will give you the point that there are a lot of people out there who are uneducated who are a success, but do you want to be considered one of them? There are also a lot of millionaires out there who got that way by living the life of a miser and scrimping on everything. At the end of the day, even with a million in the bank they are cheap skates. No thank you on that one either.

Knowledge is power. College will make you a much more rounded and intelligent person. Skills like writing and communication take a huge bound over high school levels. What is the longest report you had to write in HS? Think about writing a 20 page business plan now. Did you enjoy HS math? Try writing a balance sheet and a three year pro forma cash flow statement using only that as a base.

How is your HS network? Want to hang out with the guys on the football team drinking beers at happy hour reminiscing over old times? A good network is key to your success, and can be developed while in college.

You can gain some valuable leadership skills in college. Student organizations are a great place to gain much of the experience and discipline you will need to run your own company.

Your yearly income with a college degree is 25% higher. This is cumulative. Really, you can't afford not to go. One more thing is that once earned, you can't take away a college degree. You only have to do it once.

One thing that not many people mention is that the school really is not that important, unless it is Harvard or Princeton. Going to a public college or a private one can be very reasonable in many areas. You can also pick up some night classes and community college classes with credit that will transfer to a degree program and offset the cost of your education.

A few books that will really help you are :
The 7 Habits Of Highly Effective Teens: http://www.amazon.com/Habits-Highly-Effective-Teens/dp/0684856093
Automatic Wealth for Grads
http://www.amazon.com/Automatic-Wealth-Grads-Anyone-Starting/dp/0471786764
Chicken Soup for the College Soul: http://www.amazon.com/Chicken-Soup-College-Soul-Inspiring/dp/1558747028


Further Reading (some good articles that support my point):
http://www.ericdigests.org/2003-3/value.htm

http://www.ibcschoolsonline.net/Uploads/PublicDocuments/EducationPays05.pdf

[Majokel]

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[Majokel]

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[kamakiri]

My understanding was that if you were self employed it really didn't matter what degree you had got. Don't you usually have the degree so you can show potential employers that you have gone?

If you believe that, I have some FL swamp land you might be interested in. Your degree really doesn't matter at all in the eyes of many employers. Of course you won't get an engineering job with a liberal arts degree, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. Having that pig skin is a ticket to the club, a foot in the door. For the self employed it is even more important. You have to think about your customers. If you could hire a guy to do your taxes for $5 an hour or a professional for $50 an hour who would you choose?

Very good point. Although I think that over time you will develop these skills if you are self teaching. A plan I have is to try and self teach myself things. Similar to the way Tim talks about self teaching himself a language.

Over time, you could build a fusion reactor in your back yard. Teaching yourself a language in a few months is easy when you are there in the country immersed in the language. That is what Tim does. It is what I did in Japan and Russia. Learning to write effectively is completely different.

You can develop a network without going to university. Meeting people isn't as hard as you're making it sound. Currently I have more friends who aren't going to my high school then those who are going.

Here again, you are missing my point. You can meet people day in and day out. Friends are great. Business contacts are hard to come by. Mentors are even harder. No one is going to mentor someone who feels entitled to something they have no business having. If you think you can profit by your friends and that is all you need, then sell pharmanex products, it will save you a lot of time and money in the long run.

Once again, I don't think this would would matter if you were self employed. Am I wrong in thinking this?

You are very wrong here. My advice will not convince you though. You have to find the answer within yourself. The easiest thing in the world is to make yourself a $40k a year job. If you want that, then ignore my advice completely. Being self employed is not the answer to financial independence. You have to do the work. You have to keep the commitments, and the budget. This is not easy work, and many people fail all the time.

Failing to plan is planning to fail.

[shultice24]

For every aspiring entrepreneur who makes millions taking the Richard Branson route, There are thousands more who we will never hear of, because they didn't make it. I'm not saying you won't, but it needs to be put in perspective.

I am a freshman in a private college this year, and I read FHWW before coming here, and although it changed my thought-process, it never made me question my decision. In only a few months it has helped me A LOT.

-I joined a business club, and through it I will be able to network and find resources for any of my future endeavors while in school.

-On the one paper that I have turned in so far, I can see what I need to do to take my writing to the next level. (important for me as my 2 muses so far are of written content)

-I feel 100x more stimulated on campus than at home. There are people around like me who are extremely driven to succeed and it makes me push myself harder. At summer when I was at home working on my muses/business ventures, it was hard to stay motivated and excited all the time. Not the same here.

-It makes me more efficient and manage my time better. I am still learning how to balance school, muse, exercise, social time and get the most I can out of each day. I was worried about not having enough muse time, but I have enough time to devote to it, and it is time well spent, getting things accomplished.

-So many different people, ideas, etc.. that my mind is constantly overflowing on it all. It is such a good environment for people who are driven.

Even if I had a business or muse completely taking off now, I would not want to miss the experience. Hopefully this helps.

[Grayman]

I'd also like to point out that the reason people like Richard Branson and Bill Gates are often noted as not having a degree is because it is rare and quite difficult to have their level of success without a formal education. People mention it because it is a talking point and not because it is a growing trend. I'd have no idea where to get the percentage of degree holding CEOs or owners, but I'm going to bet it is quite high.

[gamalicious]

Hi Majokel,

Sure there's all the reasons above, but I would put forward these two.

1.) Being around a very profitable demographic. Not only do college kids have (some) money, but they are also the future money holders. Got a seed of an idea now that you think will be profitable in 10 years? Start pitching it to the kids you go to school with. Many many people would give a lot to have access to the insider knowledge you could have at a college and you can see your ideas change as the crowd changes.

2.) It's a blast. I just graduated myself a year and a half ago. I didn't go to a party school, and in fact I was hanging out with my engineering buddies...but it was a blast. So I'd say go while you can, and your new perspective will give you a leg up on all the kids at school concentrating super hard on getting the grades so they can go work for someone else. Keep your costs low (scholarships, grants, state colleges) and you'll do fine.

Good luck!

[final_id]

Should I go to college or just quit school right now and go make money? addendum: Isn't college kind of pointless for how much money you make? Doesn't it just make it easier to get some kinds of money and really doesn't help with other kinds of money and that's all it's for?

Depends. Is your life only worthwhile on the basis of how much money you make?

I recommend you think of college as finding out who you really are. If you think you already know, then I recommend you take two years off and THEN go to college to start finding out who you really are. If you think you don't need that, then I recommend you REALLY try to find out who you are.

If you are thinking of college time ("going to university") as something geared toward mastering technical skills that will enable certain types of employment, then don't bother going to college, it'll be wasted on you. You'll just memorize things, become someone else's technician, wait to die, by leading an unremarkable life. You are free to choose to waste your life thusly. It's yours to waste.

[TimW]

Let's say you drop out, start a business and it's moderately successful, but not exceedingly so. So, you decide to sell/stop it and get a job.

Oops. You don't have a degree.

One other thing a degree does is demonstrate perseverance. While it's admirable to drop out and be all entrepreneury and such, try explaining that to an employer when you're 30 and looking for a 'real' job.

You can always run your business while in school.

I can point to 1/2 dozen opportunities I've had in my life (jobs, business ventures, etc.) that I can directly attribute to my education.

Don't be a tool...stay in school!


TimW
Phoenix

[phil]

I left college after 1 year and 2 weeks of sophmore year.

I know what I want to do and how to do it.

Only thing I miss is the social interaction.

I'm glad I did go to college for 1 year though. It was great to live away from home and get part of the college experience.

I don't regret leaving at all! I'm now interviewing potential employees while my friends are just finishing up their degrees and being interviewed.

I'd suggest you go to university and see if you like it. You could always leave if you find a better use of time/money.

Quote: The advantage of a classical education is that it enables you to despise the wealth that it prevents you from achieving.

[Majokel]

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[Majokel]

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[kamakiri]

Everyone has given roughly the same advice. What else would you like here? What exactly did you mean by having the income to do 'everything you wanted to do?'

Travel the world? The last thing the world needs is another uneducated American on vacation.

Drink fine wine? You aren't even old enough to buy it yet.

Hold an effective business meeting? Your communication skills are seriously lacking.

Write an effective business proposal? Your posts have terrible style.

I could go on and on, and please don't take my writing as any kind of a slam at all. Being uneducated is just as much of a disability as being blind or deaf. The only difference is that you can cure the uneducated.

When I can cut my work week down to four hours, the first goal on my list is to go back to school and get even more education. I want to get my MBA, and I want to do it at a school in Ireland. The beauty of education is that it is cumulative, and works like compound interest. The more you learn the more you are able to learn.

After High School, I also did not want to go to college, but I went any way. I flunked out after two years. I got a job and started learning by OJT and management classes. The more I learned, the more I realized I wanted an education to better myself. What do you think Tim is doing? Studying, studying, studying. His path is much harder than college.

Without an education, you will be uneducated. No amount of money will fix that problem. Do you really want to be known for that? Do you really think it is that easy to 'create a supplement'? How about dealing with lawyers, bankers, fulfillment houses, and accountants? There are people who have gone on to success without an education, but why stack the deck against you from the start.

Heck, take the three months off you have for summer and work on your muse. If you make any money at all, then you might have something. Use that to pay for your education. Starting your own muse is not easy. If it was, everyone would be doing it.

[TimW]

I totally understand the need to go if you were going to go into a business or work for someone, but starting up your own muse? Maybe one of you can convince me.

I don't plan to convince you. If you cannot see the flaw in logic in your above statement, nothing I say will "convince" you that school would (or even could) be a worthwhile investment for you.

It is true that many people have succeeded without a formal education. It is equally as true that many more have not....but merely get along paycheck to paycheck.

It is also true that not everyone is meant (or cut out) to attend higher education. Those folks may be better off taking vocational classes to become tradespeople. There is nothing wrong with that....I have friends who have less formal education than I, making more money than I doing woodwork, and enjoying every minute of it.

Paying for school should be looked at as an investment. There are many people who've worked their way through school or otherwise made sacrifices because they believed that a formal education would have a higher ROI than NOT attending school and spending the money to accomplish it. There are many ways to pay for school. Do some research rather than just dismiss it out-of-hand. But I think there's something else here:

It appears to me is that you are wanting someone to justify your decision NOT to go to college, likely in the face of parental or other (peer?) pressure and perhaps you're using money as an excuse not to go.

I can come up with arguments for and against getting a formal education, however, on the whole, it is my belief that a formal education has far more to teach than merely the subject of one's studies.

TimW
Phoenix

[Majokel]

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[Majokel]

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[TimW]

Whatever job that allows you to earn money to pay for school.

When I was in school I worked for campus food service, worked for the campu police, worked graveyard shifts at a local convenience store/gas station (great for homework...3am nobody visits!), worked security, worked as a teacher's aide.

Schedule flexibility is a good thing to have, but I think most employers who will hire a full-time student understand that schedules change.

You could also look for grant money, scholarships or borrow via the myriad of student loan programs. You could join the military ROTC program and get part/much of your school paid for, but you would have a military obligation after graduation.

Google is your friend.

[shultice24]

Are you talking about paying for school itself or living expenses. I wouldn't sweat the college bill itself too much. Taking out a loan and going into debt is not fun, but it is a good debt, you are investing in yourself. I would rather be $100,000 in college debt with a degree than not having one.

If it is living expenses, you shouldn't have too many. You will have a room and board plan, you won't need much in the way for gas or anything else. If you absolutely need to, you can borrow a bit extra for some spare cash.

You are a senior now right? This is what i did last year. After I graduated, I worked 2 jobs and saved as much as I could. I put some aside specifically to be used as spending money this year. That way I don't have to worry about it. It will last me until next summer.

So now I don't have to work, and I use my time on my muses. I have 2 right now, www.oildummy.com and www.youngdough.com . They aren't pulling in much money yet, but they don't have to be. I have money to live on until next summer. If my muses still aren't producing by then, I will get a summer job and do it all again.

This gives me motivation and a time frame to work with. I really, really, really do not want to work next summer.

[Growing Places Consulting]

First of all, assume that there is no right or wrong answer. Try to ignore (even for a moment) what Everyone else is doing and get focused on what you want to do. I think many people try to follow the herd, even if it is headed towards the lion's den.

When I was your age, I didn't know what I wanted to do, so I took a year off. I worked three jobs, and saved up three thousand dollars and took off with a friend to discover the US. After a couple of weeks, and miles away from everyone - we did some significant soul searching, and decided in the middle of the night in the Smokey Mountains to go back home and go to school.

My experience of college was forever changed because of it - I looked for new opportunities, led adventure trips across the US, joined the rowing team, and did the a teach-abroad program in Australia. Meanwhile, my other friends that were there first were trying to power their way through programs and missed all the fun.

You can be a business owner whenever you want - I am now; and I knew at your age that I wanted to be. But, what you have going for you now is that you are young and you don't have many possessions, that is a great time to experiment with life, travel, and figure out more of what you like. Follow your instincts, and you will end up down the right path - and not in the lion's den with everyone else! :)

[shultice24]

When I was your age, I didn't know what I wanted to do, so I took a year off. I worked three jobs, and saved up three thousand dollars and took off with a friend to discover the US. After a couple of weeks, and miles away from everyone - we did some significant soul searching, and decided in the middle of the night in the Smokey Mountains to go back home and go to school.



That is one of the coolest things i've ever heard of!

[webgal]

I will have to confess to have had a spoon-fed education. My parents paid every dime. But my husband? That's another story. He was the first in his family to get a degree and the first to get an advanced degree (MBA).

He did something called co-op. And he took out student loans. Co-op means you work a semester and go to school a semester. He was an established resident in NC, so he was able to get in-state tuition at a public school, NC State. He graduated a chemical engineer which is a 5-year degree. If he can do it, you can, too. It's worth it and you'll never regret it. Even a community college can help you with some basic courses that you can get out of the way for a fraction of the cost. Then spend junior and senior semesters at a state university or continue with the community college if you like it. I even have a friend who completed her entire undergrad degree at an online college and worked at Starbucks.

I would recommend getting your degree. I use mine every single day. My university is a great resource and I'll never forget my years at Chapel Hill during the Michael Jordan basketball years. I am thankful to have had it paid for. But you'll appreciate it that much more if you work for it. Tens of thousands do every year.

[Majokel]

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[TimW]

By LA I assume you mean Los Angeles, which is more appropirately abbreviated L.A.

"LA" is an abbreviation for the state of Louisiana. Most folks will understand what you mean, since not too many international students seem to clamor at the prospect of living in the deep South. :)

"It just seems like such a great place to live, don't you agree?"

That's like asking a random person in England if they think Manchester United is the best soccer team (no, I won't call it football, thank you very much!! :D )....you're going to get a HUGE variety of answers, some of which will be from people who've never lived there.

The obvious would be what constitutes a great place to live?

Lots of people? Good food? Cheap housing? Nice roads?

I could go on and on. I grew up an hour North of Los Angeles. To me, it sucked then, and it sucks worse now. So, I would be on the "NO" side of things. :)

The other thing you'll need to research will be the in-state v. out-of-state tuition rates. As an international student, if you attend a state-run/sponsored school (anything with UC** or CS**) there WILL be a difference in tuition that can be very extreme...like double or more.

Thus, your first year may be at the out-of-state tuition rate, with subsequent years at in-state/resident rates...though to be honest I do not know if "once an out-of-state rate, always an out-of-state rate" policy stands. If so, then you'll need to move to California (or whatever state in which you decide to attend school) to establish residency.

Given recent changes in immigration policy, that might be tough since during that 6 months - 1 year (depending on requirements) you won't be a student and, therefore, may have challenges being permitted in for anythign other than a tourist visa (I am not an immigration lawyer or expert...).

You have a lot of research ahead of you, young Padawan.

[webgal]

International exchange programs might be something to research. Virginia Tech has one I think. Most state universities do. My father did one through Davidson College in North Carolina in 1940-1944 before exchange programs were common.

Why don't you tell us your area of interest and that might help narrow universities. Also, if your sport is a popular one in America it's unlikely you'd get to participate on college level. Even high school sports are tough to break these days. However, if you like rowing or something like that, there are opportunities.

I used to shoot TV spots in Los Angeles (I wrote commercials, I did not film or star in them). I have to say I hated the place The people are not very genuine and not very polite. But I am from the South where those qualities are supremely important. The traffic is bad and finding a place you can afford would be difficult.

So tell us what you like to do first, and we can go from there.

[kamakiri]

Tim - This is off topic, but just about the entire world thinks of LA as Los or Los Angeles. L.A. is only used by Americans if at all.

LA, L.A., Los or any name, I think the city would probably be one of the worst places to live as well. Not to mention the cost of living would be double that of most other areas.

[Majokel]

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[phil]

http://www.ucsb.edu/

[webgal]

UNC Wilmington (UNC-W) is on the East Coast in North Carolina. I went to UNC-Chapel Hill but the UNC system is a good one. UNC-W is on the coast and even has a "diversity page". Huan ying!... It has also been known as a school that has lots of parties at the beach. No waterfront property in any place in the U.S. is going to be cheap but Wilmington is still affordable compared with Miami and LA.

To get in-state tuition, you have to establish residency, though. And below is what it says on the residency form. It used to be 24 months but it's now 12.

“To qualify for instate tuition, a legal resident must have maintained his domicile in North Carolina for at least 12 months immediately prior to his classification as a resident for tuition purposes.”

Many students of NC colleges work at the Outer Banks, a large island beach on the coast of North Carolina. They employ a large number of foreign college students. The workforce in the area is mostly European college students from NC universities but I can tell you native North Carolinians are in the minority of this workforce.

http://www.uncw.edu/

[Majokel]

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[kamakiri]

I think with this post we can quit waisting time on this Yokel.

Get your priorities together.

[TimW]

Wow.

I am now sorry I wasted any mental bandwidth on you.

[final_id]

Nothing wrong with him being a kid, with kid's priorities. That's what everyone's like when they are at the age and experience levels of kids.

Suggestion: try to guess which is more important, what you think you might want or what the rest of us know you might need.

[Majokel]

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[final_id]

What's wrong with the priorities I have? What would you look for in a school?

The qualities I want in a university:
- Good location (good weather, near the ocean etc)
- Good course options at the school
- Good party life
- Hot Girls
- Good sports teams and facilities


Here's how I differ with your criteria. You haven't mentioned anything about educational quality, opportunity to investigate fields that interest you, academic rigor, strength of faculty, research and library facilities, chance to expand your mind. The closest you get to that notion -- "course options" -- could, in a rare and charitable reading, be vaguely associated with it ... vaguely.

I'd say that the "fun" things should be about 10%, at the outside most, of your decision-making process. You've made it almost 100%. There's nothing wrong with finding fun on campus, but frankly, it's almost impossible NOT to in most undergrad settings. The women are nearly always young, vivacious, and sexually irrepressible and adventuresome; the parties are nearly always packed with people and free alcohol; the settings are nearly always more independent than you deserve. Within that context, why further maximize fun at the expense of intellect? You can hardly go WRONG with fun; but you can EASILY wreck intellectual opportunities. Fun and intellect need not be mutually exclusive, but it seems you're deliberately abandoning the latter.

College is for thought. If you think it's for fun alone, don't bother, it will be wasted on you and you will be a waste of it. Leave your space for someone who won't waste it.

[Majokel]

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[TimW]

What universities in America would fit the qualities that you wrote about?

You might as well be asking "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Since we have no idea what you want to study, there's no way to tell.

Some schools are known for their sports. Others for their educations. Within each is a subset...some are better at X sport than Y, some better at A course of study than B.

At some point, you're going to have to figure this out instead of having everyone hand you answers. That's what happens in college (or is supposed to).

What do you want to study?
What "sports" do you want?
etc

[Majokel]

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[Majokel]

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[deanypop]

If you don't have a clue about your life's dream, then GO TO COLLEGE. I mean, go there. Start your journey, your search. Be relentless in finding out what it is that sparks you.

If you never find it, then STAY FOR THE DEGREE. That little piece of paper will save your life if you don't have a clue about what you really want to be - as you traipse through fields/industries, not having a degree could be potentially fatal in the hiring process.

But, you know, as soon as you find your thing, and you squeeze every last drop of potential goodness from your university's resources... Well, don't stay to finish just because everyone else does. Take your chance as soon as it comes!

Also, for the anti-social/shy/introverted - consider putting in a pre-frosh 6-months/year/whatever doing something/anything that will make you more confident/outgoing. The worst thing you can do with a college degree is get one without making a metric ton of contacts/friends to help you later on.

[Majokel]

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[TimW]

Again, "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Go poll people around Japan and ask the same question. You'll get reasons why Nara is best, some for Tokyo, others for Osaka, Nagoya, Saitama prefecture, etc.

There is no right answer. The best you can do is ask "what do I want in an area where I want to live? What makes it best for me?"

I grew up in California. It was great as a kid. I left in 1988 and now only go back for family obligations. I hate that state...it sucks with such an amount of suckiness that I loathe the thought of even crossing the border with Arizona.

The state itself is beautiful...places so pretty it takes your breath away. I hate what people have done to the state, in a political sense. I will not go into details only because it will cause a political argument on the board, which isn't what I want.

I feel the same way about the Northeast...I lived in Boston and outside of Boston, and in Northern New Jersey. I will never live there again. I've visited Tennessee, and while it's pretty, not sure I could get along there.

So for me: Freedom, as much as possible. Freedom from people interfering with your life, freedom from having the government do the same. A strong spirit of self-reliance. Wide open spaces. Outdoors. I could go on.

But what I value in a place will not be what others value, perhaps. An ex-girlfriend LOVES Boston and Massachussetts.

So...do you want to be around people? What kind of people? Blue collar workers? Nerds and geeks? Artists & hippies? Do you want a lot of rain? No rain? Green? Brown? Trees? Desert? Hot? Cold? Lakes? Rivers? Hunting, Camping & fishing? Cultural things like museums, theater, trendy restaurants?

You are at a period where you can CHOOSE what you want. I lived other places, always with the intent of making it back to Arizona. I fulfilled that goal, and have been happy about my decision. Nobody else could make that decision for me, nor would I want them to.

So, go over what's important to you, then narrow down from there.

An interesting website that I looked at recently was called

http://www.findyourspot.com/

It's an online quiz using a variety if input data, then when you're done gives a list of cities or small towns to consider. It's come up with some interesting alternatives to Arizona for me, should we ever consider moving.

Good luck.

TimW
Phoenix

[kamakiri]

Everyone is still going at it here, so I will hop back in with some of my 'sage advice'. In looking at colleges and universities, you really should sit down in a quiet place for a few hours and just brain storm what you actually want. Someone already mentioned that you will find girls, booze, and parties at any school (you will find that stuff anywhere you look for it actually).

Asking questions like the following:

1. What is your school budget? (How much can you/parents/trust fund spend)

2. Do you like the cold? (Northern states get very cold)

3. How were your SATs? (That will limit your choice of schools as well)

4. Are you interested in a Greek system? (fraternities and sororities)

5. Do you want to be in a big city? (or is an hour away fine)

Also think about the size of the school. A small school with a few thousand people will have far fewer classes available than a large state school. Some large universities have classes as diverse as Klingon to Quantum Physics. It already sounds like you would prefer the diversity of a larger school.

That was my school advice, as to your question, Minnesota is a great place to live. The seasons change, and it is big enough to have theater, pro sports, and good opportunities, yet small enough to have a cozy home town feeling. The only draw back is the winter cold, with wind chills of -60F, but even there, every place is heated, and if you run from the car to the house you don't need a jacket.

Next in the following order of places I would like to live are:

2. Chicago
3. Boston
4. San Francisco
5. Tipperary (Ireland)
6. Sapporo (Japan)

[webgal]

You will not play college football so you can forget that dream. They starts kids off in America at 6 months of age for football. Testosterone of the adults who live vicariously through their boys leaks randomly about the field and reaches a boiling point about 9th grade. It is so competitive, you have parents hawking their kids to coaches, selling them like French Wh*res. (That is not intended to offend the French and if it does, please edit this. We have them here in America.).

You may be referring to soccer, however. Almost as competitive and you won't play for a college team unless you are nationally ranked at present. That goes for all major sports: Baseball, soccer, basketball, football.

But rugby? You can usually play that. It is sometimes a "clubside" sport in college. However, there is something called intramural sports where a group of interested people sign up and can play any sport they want. This exists at almost every college in America.

You mentioned arts. Do you mean arts as in a Liberal Arts school like UNC? Or do you mean arts like North Carolina School of the Arts Or Virginia Commonwealth? And I use NC and Virginia examples because that's where I'm from.

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[TimW]

In a nutshell, California became WAY too liberal for me, from when I grew up there. Specifically, regarding their firearm and self-defense laws and practices (jury awards, etc.). There's more, but as I said, I am not turning this into a political debate.

[kamakiri]

OK, you just did absolutely nothing with my advice again. You will get nowhere in your decision using that kind of thinking. No more probablies, 'I prefer', 'I have an open mind to it'.

You made no decisions and you didn't narrow down your choices at all. It reminds me of a child with 10 tooth brushes who doesn't brush his teeth because he can't choose which one to use. Try it again, but give specifics and decisive answers:

1. What is your school budget? (If you don't mind paying then pay for the best)

2. Do you like the cold? (Choose a region/climate)

3. How were your SATs? (what was the score)

4. Are you interested in a Greek system? (Probably a not interested here)

5. Do you want to be in a big city? (In or within 20 miles, in school there will always be 'lots to do' no matter the size of the town.)

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[cchapman84]

Go to university for at least a year. Whether you graduate or not is up to you. I think that the experience straight out of high school is incredibly important, but degrees, for the most part, are not that important (unless, of course, you want to be a doctor, nurse, physicist, etc.) While you're in school, go ahead and start your business on the side. Apply everything you've learned in 4HWW to your studies and your side business and you'll have an excellent chance of success.

[orchrist96]

The sports that I would like to be able to play at universitie are basketball and/or rugby. ...
(I know rugby is not very big in America)

Give up on rugby in America mate. Unless you're up in the Northeast (where it snows heaps) or Southern Cali, the clubs don't offer scholarships. Those scholarships go to kids who go on to play for the Eagles (while they're not lighting up the world, they're our national team), so you've got to be top notch.

If you're looking for pissups, beaches, and sheilas, why not just go to Sunshine Coast Uni back in Aus? I heard Noosa is nice.

[VitaminD]

My experience:

I went to college for four years and graduated, and it gave me a marketable skill that has afforded me a nice nine-to-five. Other than that, I have no skills from college that I didn't already have or didn't learn myself.

My brother got sick of the interviewing process after graduating graduate school and started his own business, which generated him about $40,000 revenue the first year (not net). He needed the college to have the credentials to open this business.

We both made good use of college, but we also had our parents pay for it. If debt is going to be a huge issue for you, you can do more with less debt in the 4 years of college just by starting your own businesses, even if you fail all four years. You'll learn much more.

Of course, this decision is totally up to you: my experience is that college is basically a "nine to five training program" that gets you a certificate that says you can work in the professional world. Other than that, I consider it a five to six figure waste of time.

P.S. I did enjoy college and met some lifelong friends there. But you can meet friends and enjoy life without college too; the "experience" that people need to say they had by going to college still doesn't justify the financial invesetment if there aren't any other considerations.

[final_id]

Interesting that "skills" for the business world seems to be assumed as the only "useful" acquisition to be had from college.

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[webgal]

Good decision that suits you. Keep us up to date.

[MikeFromMarz]

My experience:

I went to college for four years and graduated, and it gave me a marketable skill that has afforded me a nice nine-to-five. Other than that, I have no skills from college that I didn't already have or didn't learn myself.

This sounds familiar! My feeling is that post-secondary education is for those who either:

1: Are looking for a specific career (which requires graduate studies after your first four years in many cases)

2: Love to learn

You can achieve the 2nd one by taking classes that you are interested in without trying for a degree.

While some courses will give you insight and you will learn new skills as they are specific to your goals, getting an entire degree really just amounts to a "passport" to your way into a certain field. And this passport is expensive.

This is much like taking the GRE to get into grad school, which is a test that really doesn't measure anything except your ability to take the GRE. It has nothing to do with the field for which you are applying to study.

I'm pretty jaded about the 4-year post-secondary thing, though.

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[Hildegard]

Nice thread. I currently go to university at the University of Melbourne here in Victoria. I'm in second year studying a commerce degree majoring in actuarial studies. I originally thought of becoming an actuary but then thought better. I'm still planning to finish my major even though I won't be an actuary.. I've been working through heaps of books and audio programs lately despite exams :D and my life is changing so fast because I am changing so fast.

But to get with the topic, going to uni is a good idea from all the responses I've read here. I've thought of quitting a few times. I mean dude, actuarial is boring - and useless if you're never going to use most of it like me. But I'm sticking to it because it's going to develop me as a person. Uni is a good networking environment, but it's also a buffer for you to study other things like I am and getting ready for life.

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[final_id]

This sounds familiar! My feeling is that post-secondary education is for those who either:

1: Are looking for a specific career (which requires graduate studies after your first four years in many cases)

2: Love to learn

You can achieve the 2nd one by taking classes that you are interested in without trying for a degree.

While some courses will give you insight and you will learn new skills as they are specific to your goals, getting an entire degree really just amounts to a "passport" to your way into a certain field. And this passport is expensive.

This is much like taking the GRE to get into grad school, which is a test that really doesn't measure anything except your ability to take the GRE. It has nothing to do with the field for which you are applying to study.

I'm pretty jaded about the 4-year post-secondary thing, though.

I'm sorry that your college wasn't up to snuff. If you're still viewing an education as something that can be achieved piece by piece as the time allows, while interspersing more "real" or "practical" life around it, then you didn't learn much at all at your college. I guess this probably is representative of most North American educational experiences, but it shouldn't be that way, and I don't think that people who advocate "getting a good education" simply mean that you ought to be free to hunt and peck for what you find to be thrilling at the moment.

One premise behind an education, is that you're required to get what you need, and that quite often is diametrically opposed to what you want. For this and similar reasons, reputable institutions require a wide range of experiences and skills to be proven before you're allowed to claim that they awarded you a degree. Knowledge of a variety of foreign cultures, different languages, different mental skills, a background in enough fields that you can communicate with people who work in departments that bear no relation to your own -- most of this is stuff people might not just choose on their own. Generally, if you're bad at something, that's partly because of a lack of interest; in a real college, you're required to take it anyway, and pass it.

Further, the act of attending an institution in a consistent, dedicated manner, at a formative period of your life, is in itself part of the proper experience. Lots of people, again, don't get this and yet claim to be "college educated" -- I call them "people who attended college" but I don't give them the credit, in my own mind, of people who actually found a set of mentors and educators that would have pushed and molded the young mind.

What's going on in a post such as the one I've just quoted, is an assumption that the person himself knows what's best for himself. Mostly, the human mind doesn't have to work that way, and especially at college age, it's less likely to be the case than at other periods in your life. The belief that college is for job skills; or that "cool information" that you accept into your life just because it catches your interest at a rare moment; is part and parcel with the weak type of educational experience that, perhaps, people have undergone, but that is not really a 'true' education, at least not of the form that I'm experiencing. I'm saddened that people who are willing to stand outside the box in terms of traditional work styles (as we all likely are, since we've adopted the 4HWW program) can't also stand outside the box of typical desultory North American education-as-work-training. We should all realize that a young mind is a terrible thing to leave to nothing more than its own whims, or to the whims of a capricious employment marketplace, to subvert the growth and widening of horizons that ought to occur thanks to education, to something so much more mindless.

And you can't do it on your own. Hunting and pecking a few odds and ends while living a "real" life isn't getting an education. If you aren't in a safe place where mental experimentation and, more important, deep introspection to the point of near obsession, can take place, then you aren't really free to build your mind. The reason we send young kids off to college at the age we do, is that this is the time in their lives when they're building up their minds. It's not hard to identify someone who has tried to be the autodidact, on his own with a few thick books. It's certainly laudable that he gives it a go, and it's probably likely that if he develops the independence and industry which will see the project through to completion, that he's likely to have more independence and industry than many of today's college graduates. But he's also likely to have a set of mental skills limited to one field, the field which he chose as his prime interest. Is he an artist? Then he'll have artistic gifts. But the best artists are those who can do laboratory stoichiometry; the best politicians can write a sonnet; the best businessmen know Tintoretto.

Perhaps this good stuff doesn't happen in a college any more. Maybe people just go there to get drunk and get the certificate. ("Attended" as I said.) I read Thucydides, found my first love (and was rebuffed), lived alone for the first time, became an expert at modern sonnets, mastered differential equations, lived in Vienna, traveled to a variety of schools for varsity athletics, developed lifetime habits of mental and physical fitness, learned a foreign language or two, built a wardrobe, bought small investments, failed undergrad economics, acted in several plays, wrote some of my own, designed the initial lighting scheme for a production that went national, practiced titration and dissection, hiked the Dakota badlands, memorized the value of Pi to fifty digits, programmed a TRS-80 in Basic, developed conversational habits that would stand me in good stead at a pub on the East End of London or a cocktail party in Kennebunkport, started a life of service. All for credit. If your perception of undergrad education is different, then the problem isn't with the concept of education, it's with the weak education you received.

I'll leave you all with a quote from Kingsley Amis, then I'll back out of this discussion. I'm afraid that I can't really make a case for that which is intrinsically valuable in and of itself, having value outside of its intrinsic value. The discussion has changed into one in which I'm trying to say, that an item which is in and of itself something you might want, is something which you might want; and in which others are trying to say, "yeah but what good is it." It's good because it IS good, not because you do something practical, limited, businesslike with it. If you only want money from your life, quit all educational activities right now and go buy yourself a late-night TV program in no-money-down real estate, I'm sure you'll find it fulfilling and meaningful.

from "Jake's Thing," page 173 in my edition:

Poor old bugger, Jake thought to himself, at least you're a cut above Miss Calvert and that lot. To them, the failure of things like knowledge to win their interest constituted a grave if not fatal defect in the thing itself.

[MikeFromMarz]

Just out of curiosity, how do you make your money?

What you wrote about in this post is EXACTLY how I felt before coming to this forum and asking questions. Reading what you wrote has brought back all the reasons I had for not wanting to go to uni! Damnit, more confusion!

I really am not sure what I want to do. If I can study outside of uni and learn the things I need and want to learn then do I really need to go? I am asuming most of the people on this forum have muses running and have quit their jobs after reading the four hour workweek. Do you need to have a university degree to start up a muse? I don't think you do. I have some serious thinking to do and any more advice you could give to help me through this thought process would be appreciated!

In response to Majokel:

It's important to remember that my experience isn't necessarily what you will have if you elect to continue your education. Like final-id was saying, much of my observations come from a perspective if attending a public, 4-year North American institution where many students seemed to be about going to school because it was "the thing to do" in the next step towards their careers. One of the reasons the education system has these problems is because instead of a university becoming a bridge to achieving a desired career, it is simply "the next step" for many people who want to "succeed" without defining that success.

I would say that if you know what you would go to school for, and school will help you achieve this goal, then it's a good decision. I never had a clear picture of what I was interested in getting from higher education, therefore I didn't get anything out of it except the learning aspect (in some of my courses.)

As for money, I'm into the 4HWW thing, beginning the process of setting up an online store, I blog, teach dance and do calligraphy part time. I do have a meaningless day job to help get through the tough parts (financially) but am working on a way out of that.

Good luck on what ever decision you choose to make! You can always delay it for a bit and give it more time. Never rush a decision like this one.

final_id, I really liked your response. Ironically enough, I'd even admit that I "attended" college in the manner that you state, rather than really experienced it for what it is idealistically aligned to profess.

It is, however, too bad that so many of my peers are getting an education that, while very informative and wonderful, does not often prepare them for the outcome they are seeking. This includes both knowledge and career. It would be one thing of college was advertised to younger minds as a great place to go and learn, explore and discover instead of force-fed by over-achieving parents who are trying to live vicariously through their kids as a place to further their careers and "be successful."

In other words, we should all know what we are getting into. If knowledge is what we seek, then we will find it if our minds are open.

I do like the idea of the pick-and-choose mentality though. It's still very possible to open your mind and challenge yourself through this method. Attending college itself is a choice. We are all masters of our own fate to a greater extent than we may think.

[Hildegard]

How is sticking to it going to develop you as a person? I'd really like to hear how you feel it is going to develop you as a person.

After reading your reply one thing really stood out to me. You said that university is a buffer for you to study other things and get ready for life. Do you really want to pay the type of money you are just so you can have a buffer? Why not take some time off and live with a friend, family member and use that as a buffer?
I'm just trying to make sure that I make the right decision on going or not going to uni. I don't want to spend big money if I don't need to, you know?

Actuarial studies is hard. Not everyone can do it. I'd like to see people try! Self-discipline is one reason I'm doing it I guess, but that can be achieved through other means too. This is more mental self-discipline. The university buffer is great for me because it helps me mold how productive I am when I am learning topics outside of the university syllabus.

But here is a taste of Actuarial:
Second year

300-203 Financial Mathematics I
300-204 Financial Mathematics II
300-205 Introduction to Actuarial Practice

Third year

300-312 Actuarial Modelling I
300-313 Actuarial Modelling II
300-314 Contingencies
300-315 Actuarial Statistics
300-316 Models for Insurance and Finance
300-334 Financial Mathematics III

Fourth-year honours

300-400 Actuarial Studies Research Essay
300-406 Risk Theory I
300-407 Risk Theory II
300-408 Advanced Financial Mathematics I
300-409 Actuarial Studies Projects
300-410 Actuarial Practice and Control I
300-411 Actuarial Practice and Control II
300-412 Advanced Financial Mathematics II

Note that I'm not doing honours. It's way too painful to be learning all that and not using most of it.

I am currently on HECS so I don't have to pay full-fees and I get to defer my fees to when I actually start making money. But still is 20k really that much for 3-4years of networking, friends, experiences, hard work, and potentially useless information that you will never ever use again? Indeed a degree will definitely open up your eyes and give you more opportunities. I agree with the previous posts. I also really liked final_id's post.

I'm doing all sorts of stuff too. I'm mainly focused on learning from books and audio programs then implementing though. I'm learning about being personally resilient, how to use and project your voice - I've had two mentoring sessions for free from a professional speaker, photoreading, conversation confidence, I'm in Toastmasters - a public speaking club, I'm education officer for the Entrepreneurial Investment club - for which I create an educational syllabus and present powerpoint presentations designed to promote financial and entrepreneurial literacy among members, I've learnt about goals, outcomes, having a life purpose (which I have a static one but I also believe now that your purpose is an unfolding reality) from NLP and successful people in books and other sources, I'm a private maths tutor in my local area helping high school students with their maths and I'm also a learning strategies corporation fan using paraliminals.

Is it possible for me to do all of this without going to university? Possibly. But particularly with my course, it has developed me into a more powerful person. I've learnt accounting, economics, organisational behaviour, finance, pure and applied maths, basic programming, actuarial maths and actuarial practise. Most I will never use again later in life, but at least I was exposed to it and I know why they are important. To give myself a more rounded education, I am doing a creative writing course next year too.

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[Hildegard]

Majokel,

Regarding the following points you mentioned, I'll put in my two cents worth.

1.) Totally dude. Most of it is useless if you're not going to work in the field you studied in. What you learn in a liberal arts degree is never going to be totally applicable in any job position. University is all about giving you a broader understanding of what is out there.

2.) Self-education is a total must. I self-educate on top of my tertiary education. Most of my uni education is total BS theory.

3.) Yes but it's not just about having a label. It's about having the experience, the opportunities and the personal growth that come with going to university.

4.) Yes being able to communicate and being a likeable character is miles ahead of how much education you've had. This is a fact. But knowing how to communicate will not get you hired if you don't know how to solve the intrinsic problem the company hired you for.

Having said all that, the opportunities that come through and the personal growth are worth it. However for me, I wouldn't stay at uni for too long. I'm only doing three years total, and next year is my final year.

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[final_id]

Well, if you recognize that the sense of "worth" that you include in item one is defined entirely by whether or not an education can be applied to a work position, to employment, or to other forms of money-making, then you recognize that your argument is circular.

Mine was to point out intrinsic value in an item which is, in itself, intrinsically valuable to me, so it's also circular.

Therefore, we've met the crux of the matter. If you like it you like it for itself; if you don't like it for itself, you won't likely think it's worth anything unless it's ALSO applicable to something else.

Funny how people who have bad college degrees from bad schools think their degrees are worthless, and people who have good degrees from good schools might be disappointed that employment and their degree aren't closely related, but still value their education for itself.

So, here's a solution. Don't get a bad college degree. If you can't go to a good school that will give you a great experience, then don't go. Because your degree will be viewed by you as a "waste of time" since it won't apply to work or money-making.

Congratulations, you've just entered the Great American Boorish Booboise. You'll fit right in.

But please don't vote ...

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[TimW]

Yes, you can educate yourself to the same extent as you can at college if you apply yourself.

However, you won't have a degree.

And regardless of what your friend says, nobody I know would hire someone who bought their diploma online. First, it's easily checked. Second, it's dishonest...and if there's anything I hate it is dishonesty. If you didn't go to school, tell me. Don't bullshit me by having some diploma from Bob's College of BS Knowledge.

[hottoddy]

I'm sure not many will agree with my opinion and that is to be expected but here goes. BTW, I am writing this very quickly because I need to focus on my tasks (a la 4HWW) and don't have time to proof read. In addition, I am speaking extemporaneously so please forgive me if there are spelling and/or grammatical errors. If such errors exist, they should not overshadow the content of the message. I can already see the preemptive "grammar" strike from those who disagree as evidence that I am not a worthy advisor.

It's interesting to read this post because I just recently made the very last payment on my student loans, a debt that took the better part of 12 years to repay. And what did I receive for that enormous amount of money (approximately $50K)? Absolutely nothing. When I say "nothing," I mean nothing of quantifiable value. Believe me, I graduated with honors from a prestigious university. I also paid for every penny of my education. University is great for people with aspirations of becoming a scientist, a doctor, a lawyer, etc. but if you are interesting in going to college to "find yourself," I would recommend taking that college money and spending it on an open-ended travel experience. After I graduated, I took a year off and traveled to Europe for one year. I can tell you I learned more about people, networking, cultures, history, relationships, business and the like in that one year than all my years at college. To be sure, I wasn't some outcast at school. I was recognized by my major department for excellence, I was invited to attend various conferences with top professors in the field. I joined social and community clubs, as well as a fraternity. You know what? I only keep in touch with a very few people from college and most of my contacts are the ones I established in high school.

Universities scare you into believing that you will be a bum on the street if you do not attend. It's simply a tactic to drive business. I started and have operated my own successful business for nearly 7 years now and there is not a single lesson I learned in college that has prepared me for my life as an entrepreneur. Universities are liberal-minded factories of propaganda. So, if you are liberal, and I mean more radical than liberal, then go to university. You'll fit right in.

Looking back, I wish I was as bright as you and had questioned the importance of university when I was about to start. But you see, I was already brain-washed into believing, like most Americans, that university is the end-all, be-all for future success. They say the same thing about SAT scores and we all know the veracity of that malfunctioning testing device. Look at the number of people who are "college graduates." 80% of people who are in college should not even be there in the first place. They lack the intellectual capacity for learning. Most would be better off learning a trade or vocation. There are stats out there that high numbers of college students and graduates do not know the capital of the United States. If you are not 100% sure of what you want to do, at least put it on hold. I would recommend obtaining a vocation or learning a trade, i.e. general contracting, plumbing, electrical, dental hygiene, whatever you're interested in. It doesn't mean you have to be the guy plumbing with your butt crack hanging out. You could open and operate your own plumbing business. Same goes with GC. These are practical tools that you can take with you ANYWHERE. If you need to relocate, you will never be out of a job. The world will always need electricians, plumbers and similar trades. Ever pay one of these guys before for a job? They make very good money. I have a son and if he wants to go to school someday, he should know exactly what it is that he wants to pursue and he better be prepared to pay for it. I don't buy into all the financial plans that are intended to pay for college. Universities are big business dressed up in monk clothing. Don't be like me...stay out of school!

I should mention that once you graduate from college, or just before (should you decide to attend), you will see how much effort the school puts forth to find you a job. In fact, you will be solicited more aggressively by the school than by an insurance salesperson to contribute to your alma mater. But you will never be contacted by the university to see what it can do for you as far as finding a career or advancing your current career. The schools only want to hear from you when you are writing checks. For me personally, and I am not speaking for everyone, I equate my education, an "investment" for which I paid every penny, to purchasing a new car. When you purchase a new car, its value plummets exponentially. Well, when I walked off that campus with degree in hand, it went from a value of $50k to a few bucks, if that. You see, there is a massive disconnect between what the schools want to teach and what the business world wants you to know. Just ask some recent college graduates about their new jobs and you'll see the value of a college education.

Bottom line: I'm not trying to tell you what to do. I'm just saying, if you're not sure then wait. You can always go back to school if necessary. Travel the world, find out your true interests and then go from there. If are you confused about your future before you enter school it will only be that much more confusing on the way out and you will now begin the long process of paying off a huge debt.

I wrote to the president of my university about a month ago, basically asking her to explain, in simple logic, what tangible skills or abilities I learned from her school that justified the $50K price tag. You know what she said? Nothing. She never even had the guts to respond because she knows she cannot possibly itemize a $50K bill. Her silence speaks volumes. Universities are a farce and until more people like you start questioning the schools' policies and practices, they will continue to process sheep for the slaughter.

[TimW]

I can attribute 98% of the jobs I've had after college and graduate school, and my ability to do them, directly to my degree.

So, now it's up to you to decide. You have somoene who says they're worth nothing, and someone whose employment and capability for doing it is attributable to it.

Want to know something? We're both right.

Ultimately, you alone will be the person to decide whether it's right for you or not. It may not be. Perhaps you'd rather go to a vo-tech school and learn to repai BMW's and make a wad of cash doing that. Or become a journeyman electrician and do that. No college needed.

Perhaps working in investment banking is your thing. Try getting into that w/o having a degree. Might be possible, of course, but unlikely, IMO.

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[final_id]

final id. Don't you think that you can learn just as much as you would at university by going out there and having real world experiences? Can't you have the same experiences that you speak of in the real world and wouldn't those experiences be better in the real world instead of having them in the small confines of a school?

You can learn different things, and you can certainly learn "as much" but it won't necessarily be as beneficial to you. It's possible, as well, that compared to a poor run-of-the-mill typical North American college attendance, you'll learn more by getting involved immediately in practical experiences and eschewing the classroom.

But there are so many problems with trying to be an auto-didact.

1. On many subjects you simply aren't qualified. Sure, you might read "War and Peace" on your own, but wouldn't you value sitting in a classroom of people of similar age and experience who go through it with the aid of a helpful director? A Russian Lit prof can tell you so much more, to make it so much more fulfilling.

2. You won't do it. You'll sit down and read the first chapter of "War and Peace," put it down, forget about it, try it again next summer, never get around to it.

3. You won't get credit for it even if you DO finish it. You might tell your boss or your friends or the fellow on the other side of the table at a job interview that you read "War and Peace," but they'll also know you don't have a college degree.

4. You'll miss it even if you do finish it. So what if you read it? Did you notice the important parts, or just get the plot?

5. You'll pick the wrong things to learn and therefore remain limited. You'll be interested in, for example, pottery, so you'll learn how to throw a pot at a potter's wheel but you won't know to go to the museum to look at what the ancient Greeks did with ceramics, mosaics, and vessels. And you won't know to study Matisse's paper cut-outs to understand the use of negative space. And you'll likely not follow the news about recent developments in polymer ceramic chemistry at Dow Corning. Instead, you'll just throw average or above-average pots, like all the other people who are throwing pots. If you want a leg up in pot throwing, you'll have to trust that a school knows more about keeping you informed, diverse, and educated, than you yourself know about it.

---

Sure, you should keep on learning all your life. That's the POINT of college. Everyone I know who did NOT go to college, isn't capable of being a life-long learner. College-age tutelage is the time to train your brain to learn. It's exercise for the mind. In the absence of having had that experience, generally a person is more disdainful of knowledge for its own sake, and believes that those things which lack immediate practical and business-oriented application are somehow "frivolous" even if the application is patently self-evident to anyone with a little fore-sight. Fore-sight which is often developed in college.

You can't predict your future. And quite often North American college experiences aren't of the nature that I'm advocating anyway. But in the absence of undergoing something well-designed that essentially requires you to force your brain to grow in a controlled atmosphere and with the experienced direction of people who know not just Russian literature, but also how to grow a brain, you'll be permanently handicapped.

Same as people who never take up exercise until they're morbidly obese at 45 years old. Sure, they can try to work out and "catch up." But they're doubly behind -- first, for having an unhealthy body which requires exercise to get back to normal; second, for lacking a lifetime of experience which would have informed them of how it feels and works to exercise in the first place, such that they not only have a problem, but also they lack the skills to solve the problem.

Wouldn't you rather cover your bases?

Education is inherently valuable, in and of itself. Lack of education is inherently problematic, in and of itself. There is no predicting which skill or knowledge base you might want to have, for your future, because there is no predicting the future. You can only make some educated guesses -- IF you have an education.

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And no, I don't think you'd be informed enough to DESERVE to vote, if you believe your education is complete when it is delivered only at your own hands and only on the basis of your own whims and material cravings. I believe you'd be highly likely to be a sucker for the sound-byte (from either Left or Right) and fail both to understand larger social and economic issues, and recognize your responsibilities as a citizen of a democracy. Democracy requires education; do us all a favor, and either participate fully or get out of the way.

---

For me, there is inherent worth in taking on the mental challenge, and inherent disadvantage to allowing mere material desire to overtake the mind. If you can honestly say to yourself that you'll do as good a job as any full college that you do have access to, and the lack of a degree won't hamper you ever, and the knowledge you gain will be fulsome and applicable to all phases of your life from now until you die, then you can do without a complete education. You cannot, I don't think, honestly say any of those things (though the first item -- which includes an assumption about the quality of a given school and what you actually DO get in a college education -- is an important consideration).

---

Don't go waste your time in college. Drinking, taking the easiest courses, getting a certificate "just because everyone else thinks you have to" -- those are horrible reasons for going to college. Equivalently, so too are wastes if you just do nothing in college but make sure you have a high income, regardless of your interest for a field; or make sure you get certified to perform certain technical acts, regardless of their level of mental complexity. Job training is better experienced on the job -- any employer will tell you he is sick and tired of recent college grads thinking they know what they're doing just because they took a class in how to handle something. So don't waste your college time with job training. Learn to think.

In other words, don't waste your mind by not going to college. But don't waste your college by doing what many people in North America do in college, either.

[TimW]

You know, I said in one of my initial posts in this topic that it was my belief that you were trying to justify your decision not to go to college via having others validate your reasoning. After sticking with this topic for the duration, I conclude that I was right.

However, don't solicit reasons why would should go then toss all that aside by highlighting the one who agrees with your original premise of "I want to be my own boss and don't believe I need to go to college."

If you don't want to go, don't go. It's really that simple.

I am done (again) with this topic. Sorry for trying to be of any assistance.

[Majokel]

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[Majokel]

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[final_id]

"why would you ever want to read that book (War and Peace) in the first place?"

If you don't know why, then you need an education.


--- (Ha! Was ready for that one, because I set it up in advance and expected it ... :D ... feeling very smug and proud ...)

[TimW]

Final ID - I saw that set-up a when you made it. Worked perfectly.

I keep saying that I am done with this topic. But, like a bad penny, I keep turning up....


FWIW, I work for myself. I started my business in 2002, took it full-time in 2005.

I previously said that I can attribute nearly every post-university job I've held to the fact I had both an undergraduate and graduate degree (criminology and MBA in international business, respectively).

Every job I've had has, in some way, taught me something I've used when running my company. And none of those things would have been possible without those previous jobs...which, in turn, were a result of my educational experience, failings, and previous jobs experiences.

Sure, I could have taught myself everything I learned in university and graduate school, but I wouldn't have taken the things I was forced to take as part of my degrees...sociology, Russian studies, cross-cultural studies, language(s), especially in my university days. The amount of reading I've done in those courses and subsequent reports, papers and other writing assignments have all worked to improve my communication skills.

Without someone to critique and grade these writings, I would end up like the majority of post high-school graduates...communication skills that wouldn't allow them to write their way out of a wet paperbag.

I wouldn't have developed, or developed to the extent I have, the ability to think problems through and consider cosequences, both intended and unintended, sans my education.

There is more to school than merely the subject of current study.

[Majokel]

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[final_id]

No, I'm not flaming. If you're genuinely asking WHY you would or would not want to read War and Peace, I'm sorry, I won't go into it, the simple answer is that you need to read it because you need an education, and further without an education you won't be able to understand why (or understand War and Peace as well, for that matter). If you're just asking that question as a rhetorical game to try to get at the core of what practical aspects of life might be improved by an education, then again I won't go into it, I'm sorry, but that both begs the question of whether an education has no value outside of its strictly practical applications (it does), and dismisses several hundred previous comments made that quite clearly answer the question already.

[TimW]

I've never rear War and Peace, but I understand why it, and many other classic, are on the top of many reading lists.

Majokel, take some initiative and research this topic yourself, rather than wait to be spoonfed the answers to every single question you have.

If you cannot think for yourself, or have the rudimentary analytical ability to research some of these basic questions yourself (w/o being handed the answers), then how do you expect to ever be an entrepreneur?

Some things you just need to figure out for yourself.

Why you should read War and Peace, or Moby Dick, or The Sun Also Rises, etc. ad nauseum is one of those things.

Report back on what you learn.

[Majokel]

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[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[Hildegard]

Majokel,
Thank you for creating this thread. I really enjoyed reading all the responses as sometimes I wonder why the hell I am at university. In hindsight, I still don't know if I made the right decision to go to university.

Although a professional speaker Jonar Nader has said that if you don't know why you are going to university before entering, then you will not know after the fact. My decision was a little forced, and looking back I think it has given me a lot of growth. Particularly with the time for introspection. If you are working at your own business, or working for someone else, I guess that does mean less time for introspection. You have a lot of holiday time when you are at university and I think that's a good time to expand your horizons.

I also agree with Walkingparadox when he said that after you graduate high school, you seriously do not know anything; unless you are really advanced and have read widely, can think analytically and for yourself. I think this was true for me. I could have taken a year off and maybe worked - become more mature, but maybe that wasn't the path for me. This is a decision that really depends on your goals and circumstances.

Think hard. www.stevepavlina.com just might have the advice you need. Steve Pavlina (a personal development expert) is currently writing a few blog posts on career. I think it would be good for you to look at. I certainly enjoyed them.

[final_id]

I genuinely hope none of you uneducated boobs ever believe you have a right to engage in participatory democracy. :)

Just kidding ... but there is a subtle point in there ...

[TimW]

First they have to know what that means. :D

[kamakiri]

Just a few thoughts:

A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.
- Bertrand Russell

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.
- Neil Gaiman

Basically these two quotes are saying that if you are uneducated, YOU are the only one who doesn't notice. Would you like to take that chance with the rest of your life? You can find doctors who will tell you to smoke cigarettes, but does that mean you should?

Here is an article of the future: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1917056/posts . This is a perfect example. According to scientists, the human race will one day split into two separate species, an attractive, intelligent ruling elite and an underclass of dim-witts. I will give you a hint as to which evolutionary path you will be moving down without an education.

[Hildegard]

The good thing about university is that there are a diverse body of people all in one spot. That environment can really elevate your thinking and thus grow much faster and can even give you new directions that could not have been previously discovered - or discovered at all if you were on your own - even with all the books, audio programs and mentors.

[Feumet]

I am going to graduate from high school soon and I have been thinking about whether or not I should go to university. For quite a long time I wanted to become a sports enhancement specialist and go to university to study exercise science. However, after reading the four hour work week a few months ago it has totally changed how I look at work and life in general.
What I do know is that I want to open my own company and be self employed. Does a university degree really matter if you're going to be self employed? Usually people get degrees so as when they go to get a job they can show where they went to university and what they studied. There have been many succesful people who dropped out of high school and became succesful, Richard Branson etc. If people can drop out of high school and become succesful then it makes me question the importance of going to university.
In my opinion the advantages of going to university are the skills you will aquire while you are there and the people you will meet. But then, if one of the advantages is meeting people and not what you're learning then maybe this is a disadvantage also. The main disadvantages that come to my mind are the cost and the time. It costs so much money to go to university and it takes a very long time to complete a degree. Just like most people hate having to work, most people hate having to study also.
I would love for this thread to become a discussion on the advantages and disadvantages of going to university and hopefully by the end I will be able to make my decision. If you could also give me your opinion on whether you think I should go or not that would be great.

I have seen some good explanations of the pros and cons of a University Education..... For the record I dropped out when I figured out my part-time business I was running to go to school was making me twice as much as I could hope to make with my Masters Degree.

I might suggest that you read - "Talent is Never enough" by John Maxwell. There is some interesting information in there. It may not be for everyone but he does have some solid info.

Here are a few quotes from the book..

"More than 50 percent of all CEO's of Fortune 500 companies had C or C- averages in college."

"More than 50 percent of millionaire entrepreneurs never finished college!"

I do believe that education is important but I am not convinced what they are teaching at college these days has anything to do with reality. Especially as more PC subjects take hold and tenured professors make a mockery of true education. I know I have interviewed several MBA's that were clueless as of late. If I have a choice of hiring someone with experience or a degree, experience wins out every time.

In a very un-scientific poll of my clients - mostly business owners that make under 5 million a year, only about 45 percent have a college degree.

If I had to do it over again, I would have probably purchased two rental homes with the money I spent instead and got started in real estate much earlier. But, everyone has to make their own call.

I would say it probably won't hurt to get a degree especially if you are going to work for someone else. But just don't expect it to be a ticket to success if you want to own your own business.

Now all that being said, I have gone back to school. I have several hundred hours of continuing Ed. But I have taken selective classes that are relevant to me making money. Contract Law and Practice, Real Estate Law and Practice, Business Accounting, and also a number of computer classes and investment classes not offered at any college.

Education is good; I am just not convinced that a college one is the only track for everyone if they want to be an entrepreneur.

But regardless of what you do, plan on always learning. It is something that you will need to do to succeed. Best of luck!.

[Hildegard]

Interesting facts:

The Carnegie Institute of Technology study revealed that in all fields:

15% of financial success in life is due to professional knowledge.
85% of financial success in life is due to good communications skills.

Rank, in order, (#1 through #6) the top skills employers most consider when hiring:

1 A good attitude
2 Good communication skills
3 Previous work experience
4 Recommendations from previous employers
5 Professional Training
6 Number of years of schooling

This by no means nullifies the benefits of a good education.

[MikeFromMarz]

I have heard far, far too many success stories of people who have not attended college (sometimes even high school) to believe that a standard college education is a requirement for success. And what is success anyway? If you define success as your ability to get through a 4-year institution to get a sheet of paper that makes your odds of getting a J.O.B. a bit higher, than maybe college is for you. I suppose learning is a good thing too.

However, if you define success making a difference in the world, starting a great business, helping others, escaping the rat race, or achieving a state of personal accomplishment, then maybe you don't need college.

[BrooklynBlue]

Of course a college degree is not a *requirement* for success -- but it certainly helps tip the scales in your favor. As you state MfM, there are multiple elements to being successful. But success in life is far more than building a vocational skill set, maximizing ROI, and earning bragging rights.

To the OP:
A solid and engaged university education teaches many vitally important things:
- learning how to learn about things that don't immediately interest you or may frustrate you
- learning to think and communicate analytically
- learning how to tolerate and engage with very different people holding very different opinions
- ideally, learning how to lead and take chances in a low-risk environment (via extra-curricular activities which could even include a "muse out of a dorm room")
- the list goes on, and I'm sure many others have covered it in the 10 pages of this thread (most of which I have not read)

University gives you the opportunity to explore anything and everything and re-invent yourself every month if you want. There is much to be said for the credential, the vocational skills training, and the network building -- all very valuable but not entirely unique to the college experience. But what it does uniquely provide is an all-you-can-eat intellectual buffet and countless opportunities to experiment and explore in a mostly risk-free environment. To pass up that opportunity is foolish in my mind.

However, as I'm sure has been said, it's not for everyone. So ask yourself a few questions and reflect on how your answers might indicate how well-oriented and mentally prepared you are for an engaged and intellectually stimulating college experience.

1. When was the last time you checked out or bought a book purely for leisure?
2. How many books have you read for fun in the last year? (self-help books like 4hww don't count) How many of those were fiction?
3. Can you name at least 4 works by Shakespeare without using the Internet?
4. Do you know what was on the front page of your local newspaper today?

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.

[kamakiri]

I can't resist. Sorry to digress further everyone (excepting of course Mayokel)

Success favors the prepared mind, why even step up to the plate under prepared?

Look long and hard buddy.
http://bp3.blogger.com/_TVfEjAyW4Fk/RzumwgusGqI/AAAAAAAAEN0/VY7ZToFFS7Y/s400/8.jpg

[BrooklynBlue]

I'm not sure what you mean here. What would the answers to these questions indicate about whether you should go to uni or not? How many fiction books would you have had to read to qualify to go to uni etc etc.
Answers to your questions:
1. 2-3 months ago
2. 3 books
3. no
4. no

It's not that you should not go altogether. My point is that, judging by your answers, you may not be mentally and emotionally prepared for it quite yet. I think it is fair to say from your comments in this thread that you will be the "college-attended" type rather than the college-*educated* type if you are not careful. Perhaps you should take a gap year and study or work abroad?

Being a classroom zombie does you no good. But challenging yourself, learning to write, speak, and think(!) well, being intellectually curious, broadly informed, and analytically rigorous, learning about the world as it is directly around you and across the globe, how it is today and how it was 500 years ago -- these are things we should all aspire to. Going to university with the right attitude and motivation will make this far easier than going it alone.

Without getting metaphysical or religious, it is our intellectual capacity that makes us uniquely human (and thereby gives us language, tool use, etc). To deny that side of you is to deny your humanity.

The rubric of individual marketplace success is a young one, maybe 400 yrs old or so. That is a pittance of time when compared to the vast expanse of human experience.

Money is a harsh reality of our modern world, one that we must constantly grapple with. But don't fall for the trap of measuring achievement by dollars alone. Make no mistake, 4hww is not a end, it is a means -- a means to free you to explore the rest of *life*. A good education while you are young will equip you for that adventure.

[Majokel]

This person is no longer a member on the four hour work week forum.