Just fired GetFriday (YMII) as VAs

[outofbandii]

Hi all,

I thought I'd post here and share my VA experiences to day.

I've had enough with extremely poor communications and shoddy work from GetFriday (a YMII company). The micromanagement required for each task set has far exceeded any potential cost saving.

I consider the experiment a success in that I've learned a lot about delegation and communication, and what to look for in a good VA.

I have found that a western VA working at 2.5 times the cost of the GetFriday guys has been more than 10 times more productive on tasks, producing better quality results, no micromanagement required and far less time spent tweaking task definitions.

My 0.02$ ;)

OOB.

[FrozenCanuck]

I'm also close to firing my help in India. I asked them to do web research on a topic, they returned a pile of URLs with nothing summarized. I asked them to start sending me daily emails (with a specific format given including an example) and they sent me URLs again ... I'm pretty annoyed. I am usually known as a **really** nice guy and I think this has been good for me because I told them exactly what I thought of the work, it was unacceptable.

I have not paid a dime but it has sucked up some time. It was a learning experience. I will see if they learn from this mistake and if they do not, they are gone. I'll find another.

FC

[phil]

I've had bad experiences with outsourcing in foreign countries, I've found it much more efficient to outsource to people in the United States.

[muka]

Is there a tax problem when you use outsource foreign?

[outofbandii]

As I'm not US based I can't answer for you there, but here it's not an issue - I'm paying for an external service, all the tax implications are the providers problem.

[MariaG]

I've also experimented with foreign outsourcing and found it to not be worth my time at the moment. Instead, I'm focusing on streamlining my personal tasks and finding inexpensive ways to outsource some of those. For example, I've hired a housecleaner who takes care of my kitchen, bathroom and living room twice a month for a whopping $60.

If you're interested in reading more of my experiences, my article Do You Want to Work a Four Hour Workweek (http://www.blog.neverthesamerivertwice.com/2007/09/12/4-hour-workweek-personal-experience/) provides details.

[muka]

I've been pricing house cleaning. I am wondering in what reagon you live. I don't know if this kind of servise is just expensive here or if I am going about it the wrong way.

[MariaG]

@muka - I live in the U.S. Midwest. Services here do tend to be cheaper than on either coast.

The key to getting really low cost household help is to find a private individual that runs their own business or does part-time work on the side. I've priced services like Molly Maid and they are 2-4 times as expensive.

[cynthie]

It costs me about $70-75 a week for my two story house - 4 bedroom, 2.5 bath. I live just north of Houston, TX. This is from a private ind. owned company.

[James Grey]

Working with people from India can be quite frustrating – and financially rewarding at the same time

I previously worked in a job in the Middle East – part of my duties were supervising Indian and Nepali employees. Their work attitude is way different than people form the west, basically it was a “work just hard enough not to get fired” type of attitude.

Also they didn’t like their supervisor because she was from a lower cast and a woman – she would tell them what to do and they would just sit there – and not do the work until I told them to. I even told them that they would be fired if they didn’t obey their supervisor – I would usually get a “deer caught in the headlights” look from them – when some of them were fired they were honestly surprised, in there mind they had no idea why they were fired – And these were highly educated folks!

The things that frustrated me the most was I would write down very detailed instructions on the days tasks – and they would just do something totally different. When I would ask them why they didn’t follow the task like it was written I would get the “deer caught in the headlights” look again – they would actually refuse to answer me. Something quite common with the Indian folks I worked with – if they get caught doing something they weren’t supposed to, they would just look at me and say nothing – sometimes they would even just walk away!

I actually have a company now that is the “go between’ for web and software projects using Indian developers and western companies/people – basically my end is just holding hands and correcting 100000 things that were not done correctly

I mean – I will tell one of the developers to “Put the logo on the upper right hand side of the webpage with a red background” – 1 day later the logo will be on the left side with a green background.

I love visiting India – I think the people are very talented, they just work differently that what we are used to…

Basically the moral of this story is: You better have every step written down A, B, C, D and be mentally prepared to go over everything several times – eventually they will learn how you work…maybe

I don’t know what else to say but good luck and have a smoke…


James Grey

[read]

I think James has a point. There are cultural differences at play. I have a VA from Get Friday, and at first, there was quite a learning curve. There were mistakes, and he was confused at times by what I thought were clear instructions. With time, though, he has learned how I work, and he's learned my communication style. Now, he frequently completes tasks in much less time than I expect (or require), and he has even found mistakes in my work!

Of course, not all VAs in India are the same, but considering the cultural differences, personality differences, and language differences, I think it's worth a little patience in giving these workers a shot.

[Ali]

It seems like GetFriday is getting fairly mixed reviews. I'd be interested to hear what kind of results people are getting with brickwork?

[Dave Gomes]

May also want to note the increase in per hour costs for each company since the publication of this book. :P

I am curious what kind of considerations are made for the growing nature of these companies. Since they are undoubtedly getting increased workflow and business due to the success of this book and it's followers there is a possibility that these companies are experiencing growing pains. All companies go through this when adding on workers, dealing with more customers, etc.

Lack of performance lately may be due to an influx of new employees that aren't familiar with the work done by their predecessors; namely those who set the exemplary level of service which has been widely published.

[TimW]

Interesting in that the Arizona Republic had a reprint of a Chicago Times article on VAs, and Get Friday was prominently featured.

The Republic doesn't have it online, but perhaps the Chicago Times does.

As they say, by the time it gets media attention, the opportunity has passed. :)

[lar]

All of the indian firms I've contacted do not offer small tasks, they all tell me that I can hire them for full time for this rate. I just found an American VA though, so hoping that experience will go well!

[italian_job]

hello

I have been using an Indian software development, system integration, graphic designer and web development company for 18 months now.

I trust them 110%, I love the fact that my contact is always on messenger so I can ask her to perform a task for me and she does it straight away.

This company is extremely good technically, but their graphic designing skills are poor (that's why I use a graphic designer from Romania for my websites).

Since we started working together, we have built 5 very profitable websites and I am very happy with their support, most of all because their are very serious people and I they have gained my trust over the months.

I even tried to outsource to them some of my customer service but unfortunately their indian accent when they speak english would be too "thick" for my American customers.

All in all so in my experience I can say that the Indian company I work with is extremely reliable, delivers quickly but is poor in term of graphic design. It is also reasonably priced.


Hope this helps,

Danny


====================

Dont know what to sell online?

www.SaleHoo-Review.com

====================

[Relapse]

hello

I have been using an Indian software development, system integration, graphic designer and web development company for 18 months now.

I trust them 110%, I love the fact that my contact is always on messenger so I can ask her to perform a task for me and she does it straight away.

This company is extremely good technically, but their graphic designing skills are poor (that's why I use a graphic designer from Romania for my websites).

Since we started working together, we have built 5 very profitable websites and I am very happy with their support, most of all because their are very serious people and I they have gained my trust over the months.

I even tried to outsource to them some of my customer service but unfortunately their indian accent when they speak english would be too "thick" for my American customers.

All in all so in my experience I can say that the Indian company I work with is extremely reliable, delivers quickly but is poor in term of graphic design. It is also reasonably priced.


Hope this helps,

Danny


====================

Dont know what to sell online?

www.SaleHoo-Review.com

====================
Do you mind sharing the company's name?
Thanks in advance.

[italian_job]

hi

if anybody is interested in the Indian company I am working with, please email me privately.

They are a reputable company, and they never let me down once.

thanks

[vito]

I have various VAs, MBAs, , doctors, attorneys and most are university graduates. Way cheaper and better than get friday.

[mcobb533]

I have also tried VA's from overseas companies with similar results. They always took much longer to complete the tasks compared to American VA's, and the work was never quite as good. There were three projects that I used as a test, and they failed all three. The American VA company I use now I absolutely love! If anyone is interested in their info, PM me.

[badhank]

I have worked with a few freelance va's from india. I was just asking for some web research and man did every one of them blow it. I was as specific as i could be, and they all dropped the ball. Unfortunately i could have done the work myself in 1 hour but got billed 4-5 hours instead. I should have set a hour cap, live and learn.

Im still interested in getting some programming done there. I am a programmer myself so i will know how long everything should take and will establish an hour cap from the get-go.

[BizMoney]

I'd like to throw out another consideration in this discussion. Regardless of whether you get better quality overseas or in the US, I prefer to use US help whenever possible, so I can contribute my fair share (however small) to our economy.

I am sure that many of you will say, "hey, business is business, and I'll save a buck wherever I can". In general, I won't argue with that. It is important to do whatever we can to improve the profitability of our operations. However, the strength of the economy affects us all (in the US anyway). The continued outsourcing of work overseas has an obvious effect on our economy here. When the economy slows, there are fewer customers for my goods. I'd rather keep the money at home, not because of an altruistic ideology, but for purely selfish reasons.

[vito]

Once you decide to hire a VA, your in a management position. You are your own HR and you take steps to insure that your VA is qualified and is not a lemon. There are so many wannabe VAs both inside and outside the US with a can do attitude but are lacking with respect to output. Understand well what skill sets you are looking for and it's a plus if you hire one with a good upside for more specialized future work.

While Manila Philippines is a vast reservoir of university graduates with good IQs and great communication skills, they are not available for $5 an hour and are hard to find. Top schools here have professors with masters from UK, US, Canada etc., I remember I had a professor in my MBA class who's a Harvard alumnus too. Also, most students from top universities come from high income group families with parents dreading a customer or secretarial career for their kids so this is another problem. Most of my friends working in the US such as nurses, teachers, and senior telecom engineers were never discriminated by management as to work quality. One engineer actually received a lower offer but chose US over China. Certainly, there was never an issue of quality.

It is not uncommon for us here to have a relative or two working with top US owned call center (more than a thousand as of last count) with a local office. They say that they receive calls from the US and the caller has no inkling that he's actually talking to a non-native which is one basis for quality monitoring. These type of VAs have no need for direct VA work and they prefer to stay with the high paying call center company and end up as supervisors in a year or two.

When US callers complain about the accent, it is because they are probably calling customer supports with a low budget. I know this, I'm in the business of assisting US and Japanese businessmen and I once put up a mini call center (20 seats or less) for an investor from CA. Needless to say, he was a cheapskate as to personnel salary and since I was involved up until the hiring part, I know the quality will not be good. If you want proof of quality, go to you tube and type etelecare or philippine call center industry, or Philippine offshore outsourcing industry. There are numerous video links of actual calls if you can find them.

This is why it is also important for you to choose if you want a VA with a good accent over a VA who is less articulate but is good nonetheless in other important areas. My English was very poor when I was starting out, but that is not reflective of my technical skills. I have many Japanese clients still on retainer who are accomplished directors of successful companies but speak an entirely different kind of English.

It is hard to find a combo of good communication and technical skills if one's budget is inadequate. Still, I keep on reading absurd postings in craig requiring above average skills but paying just $2 per hour.

As a manager of your VA, you should also invest time in training specially when you need specialist skills. I have seen this happen with one appellate defender from the US and the payoff is huge. Now, he is sparing himself a lot of hours from writing complicated drafts that also pay him good money while he's relaxing on Boracay beach.

PM me if you guys need more info.

[webgal]

Great inside info vito. That makes sense. And I think a lot of hosting companies can be really cheap in this regard. They "sell" call in service but the people that are set up in the call center don't know squat. In their defense, they probably have not been properly trained either if the employer is a cheapskate.

I will say my neighbor has the sexiest accent on the planet. She's Brazilian. I want to cast her in a radio spot one day because I swear she could sell ice to Eskimos.

[MariaG]

@vito - This is great information. I think it's important for all of us to step back as we try to implement 4HWW in our own lives and figure out when and where exactly we need a VA - or if that is even an appropriate step to take at this point in time.

One of the thing Tim emphasizes in the book is the need to Eliminate before Automating. I played around with using a VA for some personal tasks, but found that it just isn't necessary at this point in my implementation. Instead I found much greater gains by streamlining and automating some of my own processes (http://www.blog.neverthesamerivertwice.com/2008/02/27/my-four-hour-workweek-part-1/) before I even considered VA options.

Although most of my implementation has been in regards to my personal life up to this point, I think the same applies to people starting their muses as well. You have to have good processes that require as little human input as possible before you get full benefit from a VA.

[dking]

They told me they where not accepting new people anymore; I guess I was lucky.

[DaveCraige.com]

Put the logo on the upper right hand side of the webpage with a red background

heh.

interesting post.



to weed out bad VA's i setup a test. it has helped me quite a bit see the quality of the work.
you can see the test at www.DoGreatWork.com