Parents of Young Children Discussion

[SilverSurfer]

I think the one major piece missing from the 4HWW is the dilemma that faces parents of small kids.

I took some mini-retirements when I was in my 20s, what we called, "Finding ourselves" so I agree with that part.

However some situations really do tie us down to one spot that preclude taking advantage of some of the 4HWW techniques.

For instance, my wife is a PhD scientist who is tied to her dream job and has no interest in extensive traveling. Our kids are in school and can't be pulled out of school for any non-important reason. I have a house with what I consider is a big mortgage (but not as big as my neighbors who bought later). So I have more structure forced upon me than I did at age 25.

I would just like to go to the gym for 90 minutes like I used to, but the kids go to sleep at 8:30, and I couldn't really get there before 9pm- which encroaches on my wake-up-at-6am schedule.

I've wanted to talk to other parents who read 4HWW to see how you've interpreted some of these things and juggle 4HWW ideas with parenting.

[Drewkerr]

I don't have kids yet. But I would think taking a child out of school for a year to live abroad is an experience that would far outway the fact of being behind a year.

Even if you don't want to have your kids get behind, consider home schooling them. Just home would be somewhere else in the world.

[Marcie]

Well, my take on it is like this: I feel like I am more apt to get frustrated with my son on account of life's distractions, mostly just being tired on account of them, so if I can automate/eliminate more of the minutia, I should be able to enjoy him more, because he really is a joy :) Even when he is having an emotional breakdown (2 year old).

This is also a good example of un-schooling, meaning letting your child decide what to learn based on what they are excited about at the time. I do want my son to go to traditional school, but hopefully I will have more time to spend with him living to the beat of his own drummer (check out the dedication in 4HWW) I think our school system has similar rules about not taking them out of school but there are exceptions for "educational trips" - you might want to check into that :)

Oh and see http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2007/04/29/from-geek-to-freak-how-i-gained-34-lbs-of-muscle-in-4-weeks/ on how to spend quality time at the gym :)

Good topic!

[final_id]

In some more rural parts of the USA, "home schooling" is rapidly becoming a synonym for "backwoods anti-intellectual unscientific schooling in which religious bigotry is fostered rather than questioned, in a most un-American manner, creationism is foisted off as science, and THE CHURCH is considered a moral authority regardless of the corruption of the pastor, and we don't want our kids anywhere near adherents of other HEATHEN faiths, and not any blacks neither." Be careful what you tell your friends when you mention that you're starting "home schooling." They may assume you're a fundamentalist with a racial or at least backwards agenda.

[Marcie]

That's why I prefer the term un-schooling, but thanks for the warning!

[final_id]

De-school-ification. :)

[SilverSurfer]

I think true un-schooling is the concept that kids get interested in something and then can study it in a variety of academic fields on their own. My son is 4. We took him to the King Tut exhibit in Philadelphia and he got hooked on Mummies. He drew pictures of mummies, made lego pyramids, the temple of Karnak, and a sphinx (well, he's 4, he tried). He made items out of play-do, clay and blocks. I asked him to make up a story about a mummy. we did a project where we tried to dry out an apple like a mummy with salt. We bought the game Sennet which he was too little to learn. What you're talking about is some interest of the children being able to drive all levels of study. So like an elementary school child would do, I dunno, math related to the pyramids, astronomy information, study of Egyptian myths and history, draw maps, make art, do science experiments, etc. I've heard this called like democracy education as well. I think we can all agree it's a perfect example if done well, but it could be hard to do it well I would think.

My cousin was involved in an alternative program at her Los Angeles school in 1966 that to this day messed up her spelling- they tried introducing the kids to DIFFERENT LETTERS beyond the 26 letters we know as a way to teach phonics. ugh. walk that tightrope at your own risk.

[final_id]

Haha, the old "hookers on phonics" approach. :)

Or should I say "hUkers on Fonics"?

[luv2trvl1]

I've wanted to talk to other parents who read 4HWW to see how you've interpreted some of these things and juggle 4HWW ideas with parenting.

If you haven't made this connection yet, check out fellow forum member "gsimd" website/ blog:

http://www.familyhack.com/

Here he, wife and kids try to sort out the 4HWW concept with young kids in tow.

[doubletfan]

In some more rural parts of the USA, "home schooling" is rapidly becoming a synonym for "backwoods anti-intellectual unscientific schooling in which religious bigotry is fostered rather than questioned, in a most un-American manner, creationism is foisted off as science, and THE CHURCH is considered a moral authority regardless of the corruption of the pastor, and we don't want our kids anywhere near adherents of other HEATHEN faiths, and not any blacks neither." Be careful what you tell your friends when you mention that you're starting "home schooling." They may assume you're a fundamentalist with a racial or at least backwards agenda.
Gee Cliff, take it easy. That really sounds like some venomous hatred for conservatives and, I assume, Christians. Some people might think you are the bigot. The homeschoolers I know are highly intelligent, succesful, businessmen who, yes, are often Christians. Their moral authority is God, not their pastor, they love people of all colors, and yes, they don't want their children being tought anything that is false, including false religions.

[final_id]

Gee Cliff, take it easy. That really sounds like some venomous hatred for conservatives and, I assume, Christians. Some people might think you are the bigot. The homeschoolers I know are highly intelligent, succesful, businessmen who, yes, are often Christians. Their moral authority is God, not their pastor, they love people of all colors, and yes, they don't want their children being tought anything that is false, including false religions.

Were you suggesting I should be quiet about other people's beliefs? Maybe your cult membership has dimmed your tolerance for democratic debate ...

[Marcie]

Guess I'll repeat myself again, can we keep the discussion relevant to the topic at hand? I am sure there are plenty of places on the net to debate things like this, should you feel so compelled. Thanks!!

[gsimd]

We've been living the 4HWW mobile lifestyle with kids for a few years. To be honest, it happened more by accident than design. However, once it started, we got aggressive about "lifestyle design".

Our blog was mentioned earlier, but here's a direct link to the post that gives the most background on what we do.

http://www.familyhack.com/2007/07/22/my-4-hour-workweek-mobile-family

Finally, we home school (unschool) because it fits our mobile lifestyle. Plus, my wife was home schooled her whole life and got a much better eduction than my public school flogging.

Good luck on making some more time for the gym. It seems like a very attainable goal.

Best,
Michael
http://www.familyhack.com

[seacrestpromo]

I too would find it difficult to live the 4HWW lifestyle at this stage in my life.

I am sandwiched between taking care of my boys and my aging parents and MIL.

When can only travel for no more than 2 weeks at a time due to doctor's appointments, school meetings, continuing education, etc.

What I hope to accomplish by reading 4HWW and using Tim's ideas is to make more time available for myself and my family and to take care of them and their needs.

Thomas

[Marcie]

Hey - that's what it's all about for you right now and that's an admirable thing!

[VitaminD]

I consider the fact that I'm single and without children one of my great advantages. I still barely have free time on weekdays - although I'm sure I could rearrange that. I don't appreciate it enough.

I've wondered how people would ever have kids without having their financial situation set, and at least the time management to have some free time in their lives.

I'm 23, and I've told my mom not to expect me getting married until I'm 30. I simply don't feel like I'm capable of raising a child right now - besides, attracting a MATE should be what's on my mind!

[Marcie]

I would have said the same thing at your age :) I don't think Tim expects anyone to become a carbon-copy of himself, but rather wants to give people the power to have the time to do what they want or need to do in their lives. For me, more quality time with my family is paramount!

[VitaminD]

Good thoughts. Don't get me wrong - more time to hang around people I love is basically what I want. I love my family. But my OWN family? Ugh!

[Marcie]

LOL well said. You have to pick and choose your family sometimes. I was referring to my husband and my son, for the most part :) It's cool having a mini-me!

[monak]

I'm glad there are other folks on this board going through the same dilemmas! As a fellow parent of a 2-year old, this was the reason my wife and I got into 4HWW in the first place. We have been slowly but surely sucked into the vortex of the rat race, from dropping our son off at daycare for 10+ hours, to rushing into downtown to work 8 hours, and rushing home to make dinner, play, read, go to bed and start all over again. Arrrrrrrrrrgh! Enough is enough.

I think my wife has had more breakdowns about leaving our child at daycare than I, but I'm starting to feel the "growing pains" of him now being a "big boy" as well. Don't get me wrong, we love our daycare, he loves his teachers and friends, and it's great for social learning. But, we just want more time with our family unit, just the three of us. We got into musing and dreamlining to get out of the ordinary rut, cut back on W4W (or cut out of W4W), and travel the world. That's the type of education I want my son to have.

With regards to un-schooling, I'm starting to come around on the idea as well, previously having some of the pre-conceived notions mentioned earlier in this thread. But, the sister of a good friend who lives in Mexico just started attending this "virtual" high school instead of the pricey American International school there and loves it:

http://nebraskahs.unl.edu/index.shtml

As for my 2-year old, I think giving him the widest possible view of our world is the best education he can get. And Marcie, I love your community (even if it's only for moms!).

[SilverSurfer]

I consider the fact that I'm single and without children one of my great advantages. I still barely have free time on weekdays - although I'm sure I could rearrange that. I don't appreciate it enough.

I've wondered how people would ever have kids without having their financial situation set, and at least the time management to have some free time in their lives.

I'm 23, and I've told my mom not to expect me getting married until I'm 30. I simply don't feel like I'm capable of raising a child right now - besides, attracting a MATE should be what's on my mind!


That would be every single parent.

You never feel your financial situation is set.

After I bought my house I wanted a beach house I could rent out.

But seriously. step away from involving your mother in the grandchild talk.
step away...

[Jeff]

I have two children 4 & 7. They are both in private school because I know my wife and I are absolutely incapable of homeschooling. Unlike the public school that has every other Friday off for banked overtime, this one has all the school holidays bundled into a full week or two at a time. It is at those times we go "travelling." To be honest 2 weeks is enough with young kids. I also travelled extensively before I was married (Australia, Asia, Bali, Europe, Carribean, all over North America), and you know after a couple of years it got boring. It was however the best thing I've ever done, and so I don't feel like I need to take a year off with my children and do the same thing.

Right now, we typically rent a house with a pool for a week or two during the school breaks (next summer we're going to rent a house in the south of France for a month). During the school year I can now visit the gym daily, go for walks/bike rides, take art and language classes at the local college, see an exhibit at a museum, volunteer for various charities, etc..

I'm sure if you look locally, you'll find many things to keep you busy, without the need to travel for a whole year.

Cheers, Jeff

[SilverSurfer]

My son started a good Pre-Kindergarten program this fall where the academic emphasis is on foreign languages, in this case Spanish. I know I would never have thought to teach my son to write and read in Spanish at age 4, but he's doing great and I expect he will be able to do well in foreign languages as an adult. Unlike me, I can read and write Castillian Spanish, but of course everyone in Latin America speaks varieties of Spanish with nicknames and idioms that sound like word salad to me.

I know talking to my mother that when I was at home, prior to kindergarten, she didn't think I'd be able to write until age 5 and didn't try. I don't know any 4 yr olds who don't write at least some words now. It's like when my 8 month old started talking. None of us expected it at that age, but he was ready and we started teaching him words and looking at books.

So I have no problems with school, public school, and the like right now. Unfortunately in my city Private school starts at $20k per year with the good ones at about $30k or $60k for two kids which is a LOT for Kindergarten. but then again, they would befriend the right kids to help them later in life. My sister's best friend married the son of a billionaire via those connections. So when I think of my budget required to live I keep going back to $60k for private school tuition to start...

The major issue is that my wife is a scientist with a job she likes and a semi-functional consulting company that barely pulls in 5 figures. So she's not on-board with a life-change right now, nor is her company at the level where I can convince her it's time to work solo.

I ran my own consulting company which during the dotcom boom offered the right money but that industry is much more competitive now and I didn't really enjoy "seeing" Boston from an office park 20 miles out of town. In fact I'd rather work 12 hour days at those places rather than end up alone in the hotel gym talking to my wife on the phone.

I'm not done formulating all my ideas from the book yet, so I'm still going through what my plans are.

[final_id]

Whoa. Twenty thousand plus dollars a year for Kindergarten? What am I missing here?

[Marcie]

I think he said that was for 2 kids?

[final_id]

Still, $10K a kid? Not where I live. Though many locations don't have decent public education options (way to go, USA!) I still can't see spending $30K (as one scenario indicated) per child. When I got to my multi-cultural inner-city high school -- most rigorous in the state! and yes, public! -- it turned out that many of the snooty private middle schools had only prepared their graduates roughly equally as well as some of the lower-tier private or church-run (though not necessarily religious) schools, or indeed only comparably to some of the better public middle schools. The snooty schools' kids had the added disadvantage of never having mixed and mingled with anyone of a different socio-economic background. (And of course I'm using the adjective "snooty" a bit sarcastically, no real offense intended. Hope you get my drift.)

One suggestion I might make would be, to use the 4HWW principles to allow yourself some mobility in terms of school districts. Maybe that monstrous house in the suburbs in a terrible school district is part of the problem? Liberate! Get rid of it and get three apartments in town for the same total cost, then you'll have a variety of places to stay, and a variety of schools to pick from. Just a thought. Thinkin' outside the box.

Of course, I certainly don't know any of us has a giant house in the suburbs at all, but it might still be a useful exercise for us to consider the option of raising a family by housing them in multiple dwellings. Dad's apartment near his work and school, a kind of stop-over for over-nights but not really "home." Then mom's apartment near the playground and her work, thoroughly outfitted for weekends. Then the other apartment near the grandparents and close to major bus lines. Etc. Nothing says you couldn't do it. In fact, from all the parents I know, the one thing you're always doing when you have kids, is packing stuff into bags and knapsacks in order to travel across town for something. Why not just make that the norm, with EVERYTHING mobile all the time, rather than having to de-mobilize it at the end of every day?

I'm off on a tangent here, but ya get my point. Don'tcha?

[Batman]

a synonym for "backwoods anti-intellectual unscientific schooling in which religious bigotry is fostered rather than questioned, in a most un-American manner

Which is not to be confused with pretentious intellectual bigotry... that is much more "amerikan"

[final_id]

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Am I being blamed for pretension merely because I wish to eradicate religious training from all public institutions? Or was it closer to a flame and therefore planted with even LESS content? I don't think that type of directly personal attack is warranted. To complain about religion relative to public life -- particularly public schooling -- is not flaming and is germane to the sub-discussion about schooling options for children. If, to the contrary, one's personal religion is somehow impugned in this discussion, then perhaps one's adherence to that given faith has created a vested interest in one's taking one side in that discussion, and therefore has created an inability to assess issues clearly.

OK, let me put it simply. Many people who say "home schooling" really mean "getting my kids away from other races, and also getting my kids away from mind-opening influences such as exposure to a variety of creeds, cultures, and backgrounds." By extension, most American home-schoolers, therefore, are foisting a religious agenda on their children and doing it at American taxpayers' expense.

This is only germane to the overall discussion in the sense that I warned one person, that the current communication assumptions of the previous paragraph are now under way. In other words, if you say "I home school" you might readily be misunderstood to be participating in those sorts of religious agendas. It's simply yet another way that the 4HWW program might be misunderstood by "mainstream" America. Not a major issue, but one to keep in mind as long as we're talking about 4HWW's impact on family's with small children (the topic of this thread).

But that's not what's being raised here. What's being raised by the preceding post, is my personal character (an ad-hominem flame, and therefore both: logically pointless and proving of nothing; AND bad internet etiquette, likely to raise the anger rather than lower it), and questions of one's right to question another's religious faith (an off-topic question, and also a very un-American point of view, and further totally contrary to the 4HWW program, which allows the questioning of any preconception out there in society at large).

If it's religion that's clouding your view and making you insist that others shouldn't question your religion, then maybe you're making a circular argument.

[Batman]

I'm sorry, I don't understand. Am I being blamed for pretension merely because I wish to eradicate religious training from all public institutions?
No
Or was it closer to a flame and therefore planted with even LESS content? Nope it was an observation. Would you agree that infering someone is 'backwoods' could be considered a 'flame'?

I don't think that type of directly personal attack is warranted. To complain about religion relative to public life -- particularly public schooling -- is not flaming and is germane to the sub-discussion about schooling options for children. If, to the contrary, one's personal religion is somehow impugned in this discussion, then perhaps one's adherence to that given faith has created a vested interest in one's taking one side in that discussion, and therefore has created an inability to assess issues clearly.
I think that religion is irrelevant to the topic - my wife and I homeschool and it does not matter what our reasons for homeschooling are on this message board what matters is that it makes things much easier when trying to create a "New Rich" lifestyle. (for the record we homeschool for academic and social reasons not religious)

OK, let me put it simply. Many people who say "home schooling" really mean "getting my kids away from other races, and also getting my kids away from mind-opening influences such as exposure to a variety of creeds, cultures, and backgrounds." By extension, most American home-schoolers, therefore, are foisting a religious agenda on their children and doing it at American taxpayers' expense. I would love to see the facts that brought you to this conclusion

This is only germane to the overall discussion in the sense that I warned one person, that the current communication assumptions of the previous paragraph are now under way. In other words, if you say "I home school" you might readily be misunderstood to be participating in those sorts of religious agendas.
2 things
1 - So what. I would suggest that if a person really wants to fit the rest of the worlds assumptions about what is the right choice and the wrong choice for them to make regarding how they are going to live their life, they will have a difficult time implementing 4hwwk strategies
2- I have 2 years worth of research that does not come close to even hinting that that may be the case (unless you poll public school teachers by themselves)

It's simply yet another way that the 4HWW program might be misunderstood by "mainstream" America. Not a major issue, but one to keep in mind as long as we're talking about 4HWW's impact on family's with small children (the topic of this thread).
I read the 4hwwk book as a "how to" get some more of what I want out of life not as a religion that needs me to preserve it (sorry Tim Ferriss)

But that's not what's being raised here. What's being raised by the preceding post, is my 1 personal character (an ad-hominem flame, and therefore both: 2 logically pointless and proving of nothing; AND bad internet etiquette, 3 likely to raise the anger rather than lower it), 4and questions of one's right to question another's religious faith (an off-topic question, and also a very un-American point of view, and further totally contrary to the 4HWW program, which allows the questioning of any preconception out there in society at large).
4 things
1 you seem to be a very sensitive person. did you really consider that a flame? (not a slam on your character - a genuine question)
2 you are assuming that it was meant to - did your original statement that prompted the observation prove anything? was it intended to?
3 It was not meant to anger - it was an observation - did it anger you?
4 I think it is perfectly OK to question ones own faith. If someone wants to question someone elses it may be more appropriate to do so over at the freedom 'from' religion forums

If it's religion that's clouding your view and making you insist that others shouldn't question your religion, then maybe you're making a circular argument.

If I were you would I consider this a character attack?

Here are some facts
- This is a forum that is centered around the 4 hour work week.
- My wife and I homeschool
- I am taking a 5 day spontaneous vacation next week with my family in tow that I could not take if my children were in a public, private, christian, catholic, muslim, buddhist or sihk school

see religion is irrelevant :D

[thirtyfive]

We have 3 kids, their ages are 7, 5 and 3...in the past year we have done some great trips, but left the kids at my wife's parents. They have been awfully supportive :) This month we'll attempt another week away, with the kids (but it has to be over their fall break). I will run my businesses remotely via laptop and mobile phone when I have to check in.

We have a great public school and I don't feel like flushing 20-40k in private education per year. We do supplemental home education for art, music and what the kids are really into (volcanoes!). We plan on doing a Hawaii volcano hiking trip next summer.

Having the three great kids has limited a true global travel lifestyle. Not sure how to get around it for awhile.

[Batman]

Having the three great kids has limited a true global travel lifestyle. Not sure how to get around it for awhile.

Is it something you want to or need to get around?

in the interim it appears that you have found a work-able solution that fits your family.

I like how you blend your supplemental education and travel itinerary together - good work!

[final_id]

Would you agree that infering someone is 'backwoods' could be considered a 'flame'?

No, although implying (not inferring) it might be a flame. Since I did neither, but instead simply quoted what I perceive to be many other people's opinions, then I guess your comments aren't applicable to me at all? :)

OK OK, so you aren't fundie freaks. But the fundie freaks ARE ruining the notion of homeschooling around here and anywhere I've ever been. If you're in a place where it's more accepted, and less religious, then I think you're part of a minority. Thank goodness there are people like you out there! But they're not around here.

[Batman]

No, although implying (not inferring) it might be a flame. Since I did neither, but instead simply quoted what I perceive to be many other people's opinions, then I guess your comments aren't applicable to me at all? :).
I guess not -

OK OK, so you aren't fundie freaks. But the fundie freaks ARE ruining the notion of homeschooling around here and anywhere I've ever been. If you're in a place where it's more accepted, and less religious, then I think you're part of a minority. Thank goodness there are people like you out there! But they're not around here.
I am not sure what you mean by a "fundie freak" (I really am) but its probably not a term we teach in our home school - we are a little more open minded and objective than that ;)

I'm done - let us go forth and create a great lifestyle

[Marcie]

I've wanted to talk to other parents who read 4HWW to see how you've interpreted some of these things and juggle 4HWW ideas with parenting.

Yep, let's please keep this thread on-topic as suggested by the OP above.

Thanks! :)

[deanypop]

What about the "expecting father/mother"?

Right now, I'm (somewhat) newly informed of impending dad-hood... Good news, frightening news, but mostly a whole boat of extra stuff to learn/do, all the time.

So, two questions:

1) Can experienced parents give any hints as to how/when to transition to a 4HWW-style existence? I'm basically the breadwinner, and will remain so after the kid arrives... And while I make a decent living, I'd like to figure out whether or not it's a good idea to truly invest a lot of effort into this stuff now, with a kid on the way... Keeping in mind both the 'there is never a good time' principle, and the fact that Tim isn't a parent (that we know of), anyone have pointers/tips on how to "startup" both at once?

2) Assuming there aren't any particular issues, how about tips on "typical pre-dad/pre-mom" items that might be outsourcable/automatable? Yeah yeah, we want to be totally involved, blah blah, not miss a thing... But, there's just mountains of this stuff to go through. If there was a (GOOD) website we could join, or particular functions (no idea what, that's why I'm asking) we could push off to others, I'd love to know!

Thanks!

[OneOfEm]

What about the "expecting father/mother"?

Right now, I'm (somewhat) newly informed of impending dad-hood... Good news, frightening news, but mostly a whole boat of extra stuff to learn/do, all the time.

So, two questions:

1) Can experienced parents give any hints as to how/when to transition to a 4HWW-style existence? I'm basically the breadwinner, and will remain so after the kid arrives... And while I make a decent living, I'd like to figure out whether or not it's a good idea to truly invest a lot of effort into this stuff now, with a kid on the way... Keeping in mind both the 'there is never a good time' principle, and the fact that Tim isn't a parent (that we know of), anyone have pointers/tips on how to "startup" both at once?


There are many, many, many ways to make more money. There's no way to make more time. Now, before your child is born, is the perfect time to break the typical work pattern and free up time so that you can spend more of it with your family.

Due to a 14-hour-per-day job, I missed the first few years of my oldest son's life. When I found out my wife was expecting our second, I left that job for a significantly lower-paying job that let me spend much more time with my kids. That was one of the best decisions I've ever made.

Using the 4HWW principles, you can have the time and the paycheck(s).

You'll never hear anyone on their deathbed say that they wish they'd spent more time with their job.

[gsimd]

What about the "expecting father/mother"?

Can experienced parents give any hints as to how/when to transition to a 4HWW-style existence? I'm basically the breadwinner, and will remain so after the kid arrives.

Thanks!

As someone who successfully does this with kids, my advice is to start now, stay the sole breadwinner and always be aggressive about lifestyle design. It's much easier to create good habits than it is to undo bad ones.

Before my wife and I do anything, we ask yourselves what effects it will have on our money, time and mobility. This applies to purchases, activities and personal friendships.

Some choices we've made are:

I'm self employed and work at home.
Why? It offers unlimited income potential, flexible time and excellent mobility. A side benefit is I don't compare myself to my workplace peers. No "keeping up with the Joneses".

My wife stayed at home after our kids were born.
Why? She is the best child care provider for our kids. No child care expenses. No work clothes/dry cleaning. We only need one car. We eat better food, Plus, she she has more mobility than she would with a job.

We homeschool/unschool our kids.
Why? We aren't tied to a school schedule so we wake when we want, eat when we want and travel whenever we want. No rushing out of the house everday with some stupid meaningless stressor like "we'll be late for school" And yes, the kids are socialized. That's a myth about homeschooled kids.

We buy almost all our kids toys and clothes at Thrift Stores.
Why? It saves us a ton of money and we get better stuff. Parents always keep the really expensive clothes for "special occasions". In the meantime, the kids outgrow it and it goes to Goodwill. My wife scoops up top of the line designer duds that still have the tags on them for next to nothing. You would never know by looking at our kids that their clothes cost about $3.00 not $60.00.

We live beneath our means.
Why? No debt. Less maintenance. We love to travel. Experiences are more important to us than stuff.

We use "attract and repel" for our social commitments.
We do all we can to "attract" people we enjoy, admire or can learn from. This is as simple as letting them know how much we want them around. Inviting them to dinner or sending unexpected thoughtful gifts. Conversely, we "repel" people who drain us of time and energy by avoiding contact or in some cases being blunt about our lack of interest. LIfe is short. Design it.

Finally, we keep a running commentary of this at http://www.familyhack.com. The best post to get some background on our life is at http://www.familyhack.com/2007/07/22/my-4-hour-workweek-mobile-family

Best,
Michael
FamilyHack.com

[SilverSurfer]

...
I'm self employed and work at home.
Why? It offers unlimited income potential, flexible time and excellent mobility. A side benefit is I don't compare myself to my workplace peers. No "keeping up with the Joneses".
...

I don't want to get funny, but "unlimited income potential?" come on, that's the oldest MLM Scam line in the book. Everyone's career has unlimited income potential unless they're in the wrong career. I wouldn't work for a company where I didn't get bonuses on contracts won or stock options or that didn't have unlimited income potential. It's like saying that my house has unlimited airflow.

and since I'm a manager how would I compare myself with my assistants and "keep up with the Joneses?" My best friend on my block is a doctor and his wife a lawyer, so if I worked from home and saw their movers moving in their stainless steel kitchen... I'm better off with my staff at work, right? You do live in a neighborhood where things are going well, right? I drive a nice car, but my next door neighbors on either side have Mercedes and Audis and antique MGs.

and shopping at Goodwill? I have a stay at home neighbor who gets to goodwill every tuesday morning, buys all the designer clothes and resells them on ebay or her flea market booth. I think she's clocking about $500 per week on that- full carloads of stuff. With that competition Goodwill where I live never has anything for the kids except sweatpants and Dora shirts- I just dropped off a bunch of their clothes over Labor day and saw nothing. Glad it works for you, but... in 2007, after ebay, that's rare. Heck, I once had a side business that resells on ebay from garage sales that made about $100 per week profit last fall, but I don't have time to spend driving and shopping. That's wasting time I could be at the zoo with my kids, coffee and bagels, Sunday mornings.

I really cannot see any one of your arguments here. If you have unlimited income potential then Goodwill is hardly a necessity, nor would it be a problem to buy toys without teeth marks for the kids. That's the hallmark of limited income and unlimited time. That's the frugal living mindset that held me back in my 20s.

The world is enormously abundant, but I'm still thinking ahead. I want more and I'm going to get more, but not ever by sacrificing something- if I sacrifice then that means I screwed up and it's my fault. The idea of budgeting to be able to stay home, I mean forget it, I'm never going to budget for the rest of my life, if I don't have enough money for something it's time for me to earn more money, not shop at goodwill. Both my wife and I have outside consulting gigs outside our day jobs. The consulting gigs together don't equal $20k yet, so we have our work cut out for us. then there's my ebay sales which is I suppose "job" #5.

I'll put it this way, and this is an obnoxious post, so forgive me in advance. When I meet with clients I wear a $1000 suit, so goodwill doesn't work. All my clothes are dry cleaned every week. My CEO just made me his special projects assistant so I work with him directly most of the time. I absolutely credit part of that to me looking the part. I once worked for a company where I wrote a proposal that won the company $400 million in business and that's not a joke, the literal gross was $405 mill. My bonus check was in the high 4 figures off that one. When I start my own company I will be still bidding on contracts, but with the staff that completes them while I go meet with potential clients at the club. Goodwill... that's just not presentable.

A couple I know sold their company for $23 million in cash and stock over a three year period. I want their life.

I've told this story before, but I read this in the newspaper about 10 years ago. A couple's daughter was murdered in their trailer park. The reporter interviewed them. They ran a jewelry business where they were their own artisans and marketers and sold at craft fairs and flea markets. They complained in the article that they were entrepreneurs but couldn't make enough money to get off food stamps or move their family out of a seriously dangerous trailer park where there daughter was murdered. I'm going to be an entrepreneur, but my kids are never going to live in danger because I can't figure out a way to make money.

Because, as the kids say, that's how I roll.

Anyone who ever died saying they spent too much time in the office, worked in the wrong office, my best friend's father in high school had all his kids and his wife working for his law firm one year and loved what he did more than he loved mowing his lawn at home. I know because I'd pick my buddy up from the office plenty of times while in college and we'd sneak drinks from Friday night wine and cheese parties for their clients that were the most sophisticated affairs I'd ever seen at that point. Desks with inlaid leather tops, mahogany paneled walls. This was the guy taking the entire firm to Aspen for Xmas break after a $50 million settlement.

My father never took us to Aspen when I was in high school.

My wife took me in the summer. It was nice. We went hiking.

And I'm looking to get out of the rat race while hitting a target budget of roughly $150k per year which is where Tim Ferriss comes in.

[final_id]

One way to look at this is, that some people think life is full of trade-offs. They say, "Well, if you do X then you can benefit by getting Y." Or, "If you want to make omelets, ya gotta break eggs." Or any of a million other platitudes.

But for me, 4HWW allows us to move away from trade-offs. Because, if you think about it, the net sum of any trade-off is only zero. There is TIME and ENERGY lost, and then you gain only as much as you lose. You may gain something you want and lose something you want to get rid of, but still, the overall is zero. A out, opposite of A in, adds up to no total A.

I want a life where I find as many NON-trade-offs as possible. Where every exchange is win-win in the sense that I benefit from what I lose, and I benefit from what I gain. This isn't always possible, of course. But there are a lot of business gurus and enthusiasm personal wellness coaches who want you to get heavily involved in trade-offs. Who want you to be extremely energetic (loss of time and effort) about putting in time, money, investment, research, effort, psychic commitment, on the one hand, in order to gain something (usually money) on the other. Tim suggests a better way of thinking.

I kind of realize, that much of life with have trade-offs. Some of them will even be mandatory but detrimental to me. For example, paying for dinner. The cost of food is greater than I want it to be, especially since I always eat out because I hate cooking and don't maintain a "full" kitchen of appliances. So, the time I have to work to make that money is more than I want to put in to merely securing food. But I don't have much say in the matter, I gotta eat and I don't set the price of ham, so I'm trapped with ("mandatory") the trade-off of food for money that feels rather much to my detriment than to my benefit. (I guess it's technically "to my benefit" in the sense that I get food, without which I would die. But it still feels like I'm getting bilked.)

Nevertheless, some trade-offs can be improved. You don't HAVE TO buy a brand new car every new model year. Even if you do have to maintain a car for transportation in your city ("mandatory": your city lacks decent public transportation like most of North America, isn't your fault, you can't change it) you can still get a BETTER version of the trade-off than to just buy into what society says you "ought" to do. You can buy used, do the research yourself, maintain it carefully, drive safely, and your costs will go down.

And you can utterly ignore some trade-offs. No reason EVER to spend time on mowing the lawn and gardening the weeds if you don't buy a house in the first place. No reason EVER to spend time and effort on cleaning your car if you run it through the free car-wash that you get every time you fill up for more than $20 (as long as you're sensible enough to wait until there's a gap in your emptying gas tank that is larger than what would hold $20 worth of gasoline). Those are win-win-win trade-offs. You lose no money, you gain time over the previous "supposed-to" arrangement, and your total A-in versus A-out is positive rather than neutral.

Trade-offs are a total of zero. I like things more than zero.

[gsimd]

I don't want to get funny, but "unlimited income potential?" come on, that's the oldest MLM Scam line in the book.

Ya got me. My choice of words was massively cheesy. Sorry about that. What I wanted to say was employess have more limits on the upper end of their income than people who run their own businesses. Bosses control the purse strings and there is usually a salary range for employees in most industries. Contrarily, a business owner reaps greater rewards and also spread their risk over many customer or clients versus a single employers paycheck. The thinking that a job offers greater security than a business is a myth.

When I meet with clients I wear a $1000 suit, so goodwill doesn't work.

Only our kids clothes come from Thrift shops. I'm in the design business and wouldn't last a second if I didn't dress impeccably.

If you have unlimited income potential then Goodwill is hardly a necessity. That's the hallmark of limited income and unlimited time. That's the frugal living mindset that held me back in my 20s.

We don't buy from thrift shops out of necessity. It's a holdover from my wife's teen years. She started "thrifting" for retro fashions and got very good at it. She really enjoys the thrill of the hunt. It's kind of a hobby. I'm just the opposite. The few times I've been with her, all I see is a bunch of crap. That said, I'm always impressed with what she seems to find.

I also agree that a frugal mindset is counter productive. We're fortunate that my business provides us with a very comfortable lifestyle. The choices we make have to do with protecting our ability to travel with ease, not meeting a family budget.

Best,
Michael
http://www.familyhack.com

[EnjoyingLife]

Hi,
We have 3 kids (5yo, 4yo and 2yo), we have an internet company and travel around. We are from the Netherlands and now live in California. Our kids are sometimes in daycare fulltime (for a couple of months) and then we take them out again to enjoy family life together. I think our situation is perfect right now. We do have some debts, (study, house we bought and sold for less, etc), but that doesnt mean that life can be just as expensive or even cheaper some where else. On our wish list to live are Romania and Brazil. Husband & I have lived in Brazil before, but we want our kids to be a little older to live there.

I think school is sometimes too slow for them. But taking them out of school for a couple of months and then bringing them to school is a great challenge for them, and doesnt make them lazy. I also love it that they go to a school where they speak another language, so school is hard enough for them. I don't think my kids need more academics, esp. not more time learning academics.

It's like Tim Ferris says, you can learn things much faster if it's a challenge.

And that's what we are parents are for, we can motivate them, explain, helping them feel confident, and most of all just relax and have fun.

[kamakiri]

I am on my second mini-retirement. Basically tied up things for the last 5 months, and now I am taking 3 months off in the US to see the Aurora Borealis and the US Christmas, among other things. My son is 6 and goes to preschool when we are home, but nothing while in the US. At 6 he is fluent in Japanese and nearly fluent in English and easily reads the Cat in the Hat books in either language.

I have not found any disadvantages to traveling with a small child, and actually it is great to have him around. It really puts things like flight delays into perspective. He would rather stay at the airport video arcade instead of ride a plane to the destination.

Kids can really hinder your goals, if you let them. The trick is to always have them be a positive influence, and learn from them. Life is too short not to.