When your partner doesn't want to travel?

[Automatic]

Hello everyone. I've just read the book and feel very hopeful of a life without money or time constraints. Both me and my partner have always felt there was a better way, and we have already extracted ourselves from the rat race to a degree.
Anyway, I have always wanted to travel but for the past 10 yrs I've been raising our children and running businesses with my husband.
After reading the book and discussing it with my husband we have reached a stalemate. We both want the time and money to do what we want but he doesn't see the point in traveling. He can do what he wants here at home apparently and sees no point in traveling (although 'holidays' are fine-2-3 weeks max!)Traveling and exploring the world is something I ACHE to do and now it seems so possible except my husband doesn't want to.

Has anyone encountered this sort of problem and short of suggesting splitting up (something I am not prepared to do whilst the children are young) does anyone have any advice?
Many thanks
A

[final_id]

You need a better husband. Maybe you could outsource that. :)

No, just kidding. Suggestions:

Take it slow at first. Let him have his 2 to 3 week "vacation" and then see what he gets up to in his 2 to 3 week non-vacation. If he just ends up re-connecting to the email machine and stressing over work, then you know he hasn't actually gotten disconnected, right?

Although the premise of travel according to Tim's plan, is, among other things, to reduce the stay-at-home cost by so radically eliminating material stuff that you don't have a stay-at-home cost, you might be able to enjoy yourself in a mini-retirement more close to home. It's like vacation without the airplane bills! Nearby state parks, museums, and other options aren't against the rules.

The problem is that you won't be indulging in what you might consider a major component of living a fulfilling life. How did you end up with a partner who has such incompatible tastes? I can't imagine anyone who is both committed to freedom and leisure and doesn't "believe in" the rat race or the traditional business-in-a-cubicle model, on the one hand; who also doesn't want to gallivant across the globe, on the other. What a strange combination. Are you really sure he's committed to distancing himself from the traditional models? Or is he paying lip service to it merely in the name of getting more money for less time at work? That in itself sure sounds nice, but it's not very close to the philosophical core of Tim's book, which (to me, at least) is much less about just how to get more money but still be typical mindless American consumer, as it is about how to need LESS money and turn into some other kind of person.

[Automatic]

I really appreciate your reply. It is very insightful.
We ended up together almost by accident when I began traveling ten years ago. I only made it as far as England and one thing led to another (as often happens) and I now have two beautiful children.
I guess I gave up my dreams as we faced financial difficulties, illnesses and so on.
Reading the book has re-ignited the fire in me and given me hope for the first time in years, and I thought my husband would share the same aspirations. This wasn't entirely presumptuous of me as we have often talked about traveling, seeing the world etc but the lack of money and time has always been the excuse. I guess perhaps my husband might now be a bit fearful now that it could become a reality and I am serious about it!

It is good advice to take things slow, he is the sort of person who seems to need time to adjust to change or new ideas.

You know I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say
Are you really sure he's committed to distancing himself from the traditional models? Or is he paying lip service to it merely in the name of getting more money for less time at work?
He hasn't read the book himself although I've been reading bits out and explaining parts as I've read it, and we've been discussing it together. He is most excited about getting more money and working less.

I guess I don't need to do anything at the moment apart from follow the steps in the book, and cross that bridge when i come to it.

Thanks again, I really appreciate your reply.

[wildsoul]

I wouldn't get worked up over it just yet, as it doesn't sound like you're in a place where you can leave on an extended trip just now anyways.

Why not plan a couple 2-3 week trips and see if the travel-bug gets ahold of him? It doesn't have to be black/white. You can ease into it. At least he is interested in the 2-3 week holidays!

In 2005, I decided I had to go to Africa. My husband is a workaholic (I am too, because I'm self-employed.) I know he is facinated with Africa, but there was just no way he'd agree to take a vacation. So I didn't even ask. I simply said, "Honey, I'm going to Africa in August. Would you like to come with me?" LOL... at first he said he couldn't go, but when he realized his wife really WAS going to go to Africa without him, he decided to join me. It was the trip of a lifetime for him.

Small confession though, not one meant to discourage you. Since I really need adventures in my life, and my hubby flat-out says ALL he wants to do is work (he won't even take a weekend off w/ me) I decided to get a divorce. But I'm glad we went to Africa together. It's a good memory.

[final_id]

I think anyone who said, "All I WANT to do is work," is either very lucky or very deluded. I mean, I WANT to do the work of my lifetime -- playing music, acting, performing, writing plays, something like that. It doesn't feel like work. But if what they mean by "work" is, that they WANT to operate a business and micro-manage the details (especially if the details they're managing could just as profitably be rearranged to be automated or outsourced) then what they are doing is HIDING from life's thrills and new experiences by swaddling themselves in something familiar.

I know, I know, sometimes it's scary to try something new. But geez, to WANT to work? I don't get it.

[cheez avenger]

Worst case scenario, you go on vacation alone! Just like Tim does. I've read where he'll ask some friends if they want to roll with him to somewhere cool, and when they say no, he plans the trip for 1 anyway.

I intend to do that myself. I'll ask my friends if they wanna come, if they say no, then it's gonna be just me.




-cheez avenger

[mphcoach]

As I read 4HWW this was a problem that I kept thinking about.

In fact it made me think of a deeper set of problems around my own relationship, which was about wanting to do things that I wanted to do on my own (partly because I don't enjoy the responsibility of taking a partner along, as I'm pretty resourceful and prepared to take travelling as it comes and I don't think my partner would be and I don't weant that hassle anyway - yea, I know, see a shrink!).

So, I am going to get back into the habit of going off on my own (with my camera!) like I once negotiated an agreement for. As someone says in the thread 'I'm going off to Africa', I need to get that started again, but with the 'on my own' tacked on the end.

Bottom line is that I'm not sure if the relationship is what I really want and my kids are grown, but I don't as yet have the courage to move on.

This book has created an edge to my challenge that I'm still pondering on, with a goal of 2 months on my own next year with 12 months around the world in 2009.

Martin

[final_id]

I want to go to exciting places with my partner, but I don't have a partner. :(

In fact, in a lot of ways I'm worried that 4HWW puts me in the position of being LESS likely rather than more, to be able to find adequate female partnership. In my experience, attractive women tend to seek men who have traditional boring jobs with regular major week-long time-commitments and a corporate cubicle (at least, for longer-term bonding; for one-night stands they seek burly aggressive hyper-masculine jerks, but that's a different question). The women I've been attracted to have liked men who spend their money on buying houses, stuff, things, toys. Women like men who "fit in" and buy buy buy. 4HWW is about rejecting the quest to fit in.

[Marcie]

Wow. If it makes you feel better, I'm not at all like you describe above!

Edited to say: except for the attractive part :p

[jc_]

Cliff,
A wave of queasiness ran over me when I read this:

In my experience, attractive women tend to seek men who have traditional boring jobs with regular major week-long time-commitments and a corporate cubicle .... Women like men who "fit in" and buy buy buy.

This may be true in your experience, but realize this is a fairly offensive statement towards women.

I believe that if you follow the 4HWW quest and liberate yourself from the mundane, you are actually going to be *more* likely to find the right partner for you--one who shares a similar outlook on the world, similar ideals, etc.

I've found that in relationships, we tend to gravitate towards and are most compatible with people who mirror (or at least appreciates) the things we like most about ourselves--are you adventurous? fun? smart? <insert good quality here> :)? Do you want to be with someone who loves the cubicle? probably not! I'd want to be with someone who has these types of characteristics and also appreciates them in me.

my two cents.

-jen

[final_id]

Yah, sorry: I meant the "in my experience" to indicate not, "I think it is generally the case, that ..." but rather, to mean "among the humans whom I have had the fortune or misfortune to meet." It was intended only as an indicator of my own dating record, and not as an attempt at fair generalization about all human females. Sorry for the weak writing, and although it is rather belaboring a point now to go on, I will.

What I manage to do, somehow (and I don't know WHAT it is that brings this about) is find gold-diggers (to use an old metaphor), or, stranger, women who think that WITH ME they need to TURN ON their otherwise un-engaged gold-digging instincts. My criteria for meeting people isn't really set-and-dried, and this has happened in a variety of settings and age groups etc., so it's something of a "cross I bear" consistently. The whole "be a good provider" expectation (which I frankly find offensive -- if a woman wants equal pay, then she needs to take equal responsibility for the bills! and I'm really not attracted to women who DON'T expect equal pay for equal work "just because" they're female).

And 4HWW is just ANOTHER manner in which the "traditonal provider" role might be thwarted in some manner or another. Even if I DO make oodles and kaboodles of money off of some Muse-er-other, nevertheless it won't LOOK normal and predictable to people who aren't familiar with this counter-cultural phenomenon.

To put it all differently: if I'm already having trouble finding people with whom I click when I have the whole of mainstream America to troll through, won't it just make it all the more difficult if I further limit myself to an even smaller niche market?

Anyway, I know I'm already getting "funny looks" from people who expect more traditional answers to "what do you do?" I can't answer any better than Tim can. I guess that's good, in some ways. But it just leaves me even more "out in the cold" in other manners. They don't want me networking with them at their social functions, even though they enjoy my company and even though I and they could professionally and socially benefit from the social connections. There's a type of, "He doesn't do what WE do, he's not RIGHT in the head" kind of social hint going on. Whether or not it's strictly about dating and romantic relationships, I find I'm not very good at overcoming this obstacle. I just end up without friends or associates and then potter along lonely. I don't WANT to be lonely. I need a new set of social skills to help overcome the "handicap" that 4HWW can impose on me, on the basis of others' poorly considered false assumptions about who I must be, merely because I don't have a regular job. I need some way to "help" them get back into my life despite their potential misgivings or preconceptions.

See what I'm saying?

[Marcie]

okay, well, to me it's like you are saying (in your experience) most women are attracted to men with dark hair and eyes, and say you have red hair and blue eyes. (This is not the greatest example) but what I am trying to say is that most men do have dark hair and eyes, so, more men with dark hair and eyes are getting married.

Most men have a traditional job. That's not what is attractive about them, I would say it's a work ethic and yes an ability to be a provider. Actually, I make more money than my husband but that is neither here nor there to me, he works just as hard (and harder) than I do, I just happen to have a skillset that is more valuable. It's his ambition that was attractive to me.

Maybe you can just say "I own my own company" and get into details later if needed. There's nothing wrong with that!

SO, Cliff, what is it that you do? :)

Oh and PS - yes, there most certainly are gold-diggers out there. You are looking for someone who loves you for you. There is nothing wrong with that either! ;)

[final_id]

You used the magic words: "Work ethic."

I have none. I don't believe in the "work ethic." I think that's just screwed up assumptions. The value of work is, what it produces. I don't believe in work for work's sakes. I want to work out in the gym, NOT in order to be able to say I spent time lifting and replacing round slabs of metal. Rather, I want my muscles to grow, my cardio-vascular fitness to improve, whatever. If I can get that benefit from 5 minutes with little effort, or in a different style of workout over a six hour period, I will not hesitate to choose the former. Most modern cubicle employees, as Tim reminds us, tend to choose the latter. My choice is unfamiliar, and then is often mistakenly ALSO identified as laziness or some kind of "bohemian" lifestyle of counter-cultural "artsiness" (neither of which I object to; but I don't really aspire to them either).

It's just a recipe for miscommunication. "I don't have a job," to me means, "I'm making a better choice than a lot of people who get work merely because of their fear of finding income more non-traditionally." But to the women I want to date, often, it means, "I don't have an income and I'm a loser and I hang out on my parents' sofa all day."

Consequently, I get few dates. :)

So, your example about the dark-haired men might be a poor syllogism (it is!), but it's not the problem I'm trying to identify in my interactions. The problem I see, is the rapid-fire assumptions which follow after anyone's discovery that a certain individual doesn't have a traditional job in a traditional workplace. "So, what do you do?" is SUCH a backhanded, invasive way of asking, "Are you a valid person? I judge this on whether or not you have something 'impressive' and 'normal' as an answer."

Now, coupled with the fact that I'm going back to school, and have just moved back in with my family (eek! at 41!), and I'm REALLY feeling insecure. I don't want to go out any more because I'm afraid people will "find me out." That's not a recipe for getting dates with great women who are "going somewhere" and "making something of themselves."

[cheez avenger]

You used the magic words: "Work ethic."

I have none. I don't believe in the "work ethic." I think that's just screwed up assumptions. The value of work is, what it produces. I don't believe in work for work's sakes. I want to work out in the gym, NOT in order to be able to say I spent time lifting and replacing round slabs of metal. Rather, I want my muscles to grow, my cardio-vascular fitness to improve, whatever. If I can get that benefit from 5 minutes with little effort, or in a different style of workout over a six hour period, I will not hesitate to choose the former. Most modern cubicle employees, as Tim reminds us, tend to choose the latter. My choice is unfamiliar, and then is often mistakenly ALSO identified as laziness or some kind of "bohemian" lifestyle of counter-cultural "artsiness" (neither of which I object to; but I don't really aspire to them either).

It's just a recipe for miscommunication. "I don't have a job," to me means, "I'm making a better choice than a lot of people who get work merely because of their fear of finding income more non-traditionally." But to the women I want to date, often, it means, "I don't have an income and I'm a loser and I hang out on my parents' sofa all day."

Consequently, I get few dates. :)

So, your example about the dark-haired men might be a poor syllogism (it is!), but it's not the problem I'm trying to identify in my interactions. The problem I see, is the rapid-fire assumptions which follow after anyone's discovery that a certain individual doesn't have a traditional job in a traditional workplace. "So, what do you do?" is SUCH a backhanded, invasive way of asking, "Are you a valid person? I judge this on whether or not you have something 'impressive' and 'normal' as an answer."

Now, coupled with the fact that I'm going back to school, and have just moved back in with my family (eek! at 41!), and I'm REALLY feeling insecure. I don't want to go out any more because I'm afraid people will "find me out." That's not a recipe for getting dates with great women who are "going somewhere" and "making something of themselves."



Don't feel bad about the age and being at home bit. I'm 29 and am still at home. I get more ass than a toilet seat! :cool:

I've just built up my social skill set, that I know what to do when I get into "uncomfortable situations" with women (married, w/boyfriend, gold diggers, etc...)

I'm dark haired, dark eyed, and most women that dig me are of the same. I just happen to dig on the blue eyed blonde haired surfer girl types--so I focus on what I want and with a little work I get them. :D



Don't dwell on the B.S., would you rather be homeless?

Work on your game, and get out there and experience life.


I'm in the midst of planning my trip. At first it was going to be only 10 days, I'm taking a full 3 weeks now. Why? Why not?


Cheers!


-cheez avenger

[wildsoul]

Cliff, I had to giggle at your comment about attractive women only wanting to date cubicle slaves. It's all about the social circles you run in.

My crowd are mostly entrepreneurs. Successful, or on their way. There is an incomprension of the motives, if not flat-out disdain, of the day-job guys in my circle. It's considered uncool to be a cog in the machine. We're mostly on the west coast though, so being a freedom-loving entrepreneur is part of our culture here. If I brought a desk-jockey to a party, my friends would think I'd lost my mind.

But it's true that women want to feel that they are with a man who can protect/provide. Beyond talk of gold-diggers (ewww) I think there is something primal in those instincts, not unlike men wanting women with big breasts and all that. The beauty-for-money trade is an old cultural bias.