Is anyone creating an online service-based muse?

[maxpr]

I am.

My question is how are you going about it?

I think the idea differs much from most of the muses I see here like selling vitamins, MLM, drop shipping, etc...

I am more interested in creating a BRAND and AROUND that brand marketing and selling my online service to potential clients and signing up users. I will say the idea relies/revolves around media outlets, journalists and users on my site.

But as many people who are trying to develop a muse, I am confused about its initial marketing and sales and I am kind of close to completing the site.

I will say I probably would not suggest outsourcing web programming or design overseas which I made the mistake of doing twice during my site development (mainly a time based problem, has taken an unbelievably long amount of time I am embarrassed to mention here).

What are some steps people took in similar online service-based ventures?

Thanks
-Max

[Dus10]

I am doing so, more along the line of SaaS or Software as a Service. Some of the things seem easy, others seem complex...

I am actually looking at oursourcing some web programming, but that is because what I want doesn't exist, especially from the "simplicity" aspect, as well as the cost benefit.

Let me say that I have been able to take this concept that would normally have EXTREMELY high entry-costs (relative to being just an average joe trying to start a small business without outside resources), and have eliminated nearly all of them, besides the web programming requirements.

The software that exists to do what I want is extremely complex with way too many options, and it is in the range of $20k, for what I need. I can buy it for $500, as far as the quote currently stands. If push comes to shove, I can actually do some or all of the development, but I don't have the time for it, presently, which is why I am outsourcing. If it fails, then at least I learn, right?

[maxpr]

I am doing so, more along the line of SaaS or Software as a Service. Some of the things seem easy, others seem complex...

I am actually looking at oursourcing some web programming, but that is because what I want doesn't exist, especially from the "simplicity" aspect, as well as the cost benefit.

Let me say that I have been able to take this concept that would normally have EXTREMELY high entry-costs (relative to being just an average joe trying to start a small business without outside resources), and have eliminated nearly all of them, besides the web programming requirements.

The software that exists to do what I want is extremely complex with way too many options, and it is in the range of $20k, for what I need. I can buy it for $500, as far as the quote currently stands. If push comes to shove, I can actually do some or all of the development, but I don't have the time for it, presently, which is why I am outsourcing. If it fails, then at least I learn, right?

I agree. I have learned a lot and I have learned a lot about managing outsourcers and how difficult it is!

Anyhow, good luck with your muse sounds like it will be interesting.

[darrylc]

Be sure to check out this for some excellent tips:

http://gettingreal.37signals.com/toc.php

Tim recommended the book on a recent episode of Random.

[Dus10]

That book is pretty awesome. I have been goint to the chiropractor lately, and I have been reading it on my phone while I do PT and mechanical massage. I think it dovetails nicely with the message of finding a niche, having a great product, and limiting "options," as described by Tim. That is really what I am shooting for.... I want a "premium" service compared to the others in the marketspace.

[WaldenPond]

I find it a bit surprising that Tim's book doesn't really even mention creating a muse that is more in-line with what the majority of web entrepreneurship is dedicated to these days - - the subscription-based SaaS evolution and/or "sticky" sites that profit mainly through ads.

Now, I understand Tim not RECOMMENDING pursuing these types of business models, as this is not how he made his millions, and therefore not necessarily his area of expertise. . . (and let's be honest, if it were the area of expertise for any of us in the here and now, we wouldn't be here on this forum right now) but it puzzles me that Tim didn't even mention these more contemporary internet trends as a possibility and give reasons why he does or does not recommend it. It was definitely something that was on my mind while reading the chapters in question.

Did Tim's market research show that 80% of his potential readers would be simpletons for whom the very concept of using the internet for something other than just an interactive online magazine ad and order form would be somehow "beyond them"? I doubt it.

Regarding the prospects of these more contemporary web enterprises, it's my gut assumption (unsupported by empirical data at this time) is that the 1% or so who's web 2.0 online services break through and become sustainably profitable, do not achieve success in a manner that is conducive to automated income. . . they either require constant content updates (such as a blog), or ongoing infrastructure investment and design guidance (such as any subscription-based SaaS venture).

Creating a useful and profitable SaaS experience, from what I've seen of all such enterprises that have made it past "startup", is that they require a substantial and ongoing engineering investment. SaaS has to work, work well, and work in a way that can keep pace with your customers and their ever-changing needs and technology.

Salesforce.com (a noteable SaaS success and leader) is the exact opposite of an automated income machine, as is most any software product you're developing yourself, SaaS or not. Software products are either continually growing/adapting, or slowly dying. While this may be a very viable alternative to working for someone else, it's not really in line with the automated muse-income model that Tim lays out. . . at least not from my perspective.

On a smaller scale than the massive Salesforce.com, Tim's friend Doug (mentioned in the book, the audio sample CD guy) who according to the book is making "just enough to pay his expenses and achieve freedom" - - has evolved his business http://www.sonomic.com over the past 10 years to include surprisingly sophisticated SaaS-like services and functionality. Now it could be that even with the extra development Doug has invested in, and will have to continually invest in, that this quasi-SaaS-like business still allows a muse-like time investment per week. However, Sonomic did not launch with this sort of SaaS functionality. . . it's taken Doug 10 years to get to this point, and these engineering investments have likely been made just to keep pace with how his pro-audio clients need to work. Implementing this much back end software functionality (outsource contracted or no) in a startup muse would be cost prohibitive, time prohibitive, and a very risky investment either way (I estimate $7k at the absolute least for a contract team in an area with a very favorable exchange rate and labor market). . . thought I'd love to be proven wrong on this point. . . it would be awesome to hear of some good examples to the contrary.

Regarding enterprises designed to make most of their money from online ads - - it's my understanding that stickiness (specifically targeted customers returning repeatedly) is the key factor, and stickiness requires delivering fresh targeted high-quality content (as in a blog updated 5xs a week or more, with a the author replying to user comments and forum posts continually), or well-moderated user-generated content (as a former paid forum moderator, i know that not every forum can be suitably sustained by an internationally outsourced moderator, even if this forum runs that way - - I also know that this post is way too long for most anyone to have read this far, or taken at all seriously).

I do know of bloggers who live off ad revenue from blogging, but it takes quite a lot of time and persistence to get to that point, and the amount of work involved is not quite in-line with what could be defined as a muse enterprise. . . at least it's not quite in line with what Tim proposes in the book.

So, while I completely understand the allure and buzz around SaaS and ad-generated business models - - I'm at a loss as to how these models can overcome either the onging time investment needed or the financial/technology investment needed to make them function as intended in the marketplace. . . . if someone has more insight I'd love to hear it. It would make my year for someone to bring in some good evidence to the contrary.

[jaywenk]

I am.

My question is how are you going about it?

I think the idea differs much from most of the muses I see here like selling vitamins, MLM, drop shipping, etc...

I am more interested in creating a BRAND and AROUND that brand marketing and selling my online service to potential clients and signing up users. I will say the idea relies/revolves around media outlets, journalists and users on my site.

But as many people who are trying to develop a muse, I am confused about its initial marketing and sales and I am kind of close to completing the site.

I will say I probably would not suggest outsourcing web programming or design overseas which I made the mistake of doing twice during my site development (mainly a time based problem, has taken an unbelievably long amount of time I am embarrassed to mention here).

What are some steps people took in similar online service-based ventures?

Thanks
-Max

Max,

I launched my first service based muse a couple of months ago and shared the process and got feedback from the forum (smarterthanwallstreet.com). I've been offering the service for free and have about 350 subscribers with 25-30 new each week. The plan was to get to 1,000 by year end and then offer the service for 50-70/month in 2010. If even 10% stay on it would be reasonably profitable and fit the definition of a muse (a few thousand per month profit and about 20 minutes per week of time).

My second venture went live about two weeks ago and is maybe more what you're referring to as an online service. This one is advisorcontrol.com and is a free marketing and business building site for financial advisors. I've done zero marketing for the site and there's about 40 free members currently. This is meant to develop long-term into a brand that will ultimately get financial advisors to participate in web based or live seminars that will also be free. The monetizing will be in finding 50 partner advisory firms that will essentially get plugged into the exact same technologies and asset management as a company I own and run. They would pay us based on the money we manage in an outsourced capacity and my firm would show them how to replicate and grow beyond what I was able to do.

So that is the concept, in a nutshell. I think it can be done in a lot of ways, but the best are ways to employ significant leverage on your service. In my opinion, this is best done by building a solid following via a free but high value service - then leveraging those relationships for maximum value for all parties down the road.

Obviously this will not help someone who wants to make money next month, but is a much more viable model for long term success in using the web for service and/or member based business models. Boiling the frog slow, I think is the expression.

Good luck and hopefully you'll let us all know more about your project down the road.

Just so credit is given where it's due if anyone checks out advisorcontrol.com - Dvdwlsh was kind enough to allow interpretive use of his muselife.com introduction copy and my designer was arranged by contacting davecraige.com from here on the forum (Gerlof van Ek of the Netherlands was the programmer).

[WaldenPond]

Nice muse site Jaywenk! Very clean, thorough, attractive and reassuring.

Forgive me if I'm grossly oversimplifying or misunderstanding, but stripping down the mechanics of your backend software to an algo that continually provides data in response to the stock market. . . . it's a great solution - - seems you've found a way to minimize some of the ongoing tweaks and refinements that would otherwise be inherent in keeping a web app viable over time. Well done!

[jaywenk]

Nice muse site Jaywenk! Very clean, thorough, attractive and reassuring.

Forgive me if I'm grossly oversimplifying or misunderstanding, but stripping down the mechanics of your backend software to an algo that continually provides data in response to the stock market. . . . it's a great solution - - seems you've found a way to minimize some of the ongoing tweaks and refinements that would otherwise be inherent in keeping a web app viable over time. Well done!

It took nearly 10 years to develop the backend and there are numerous technologies, from simple vba to more complex neural nets - but your simplification is spot on. Automate the statistical best practices of investing with technology that is self adapting because data is always being fed into the various systems. Since most financial advisors are really more or less sales people, this gives them a mechanism to build better businesses by not having to worry about the investment management and gives me a very difficult to replicate muse.

[maxpr]

What did you guys running service-based sites do as far as marketing goes?

Since I am not selling a tangible product and need to build a user list I was trying to brainstorm ideas on contacting potential users/utilizers of my site. Google Adwords is great and all but I need a more personal medium in the beginning to contact potential clients.

Maybe a boiler plated email with my company heading introducing myself and briefly explaining my service?

Thoughts or advice?

Thanks. It is good to see so a few guys really making it with their service sites!

[jaywenk]

What did you guys running service-based sites do as far as marketing goes?

Since I am not selling a tangible product and need to build a user list I was trying to brainstorm ideas on contacting potential users/utilizers of my site. Google Adwords is great and all but I need a more personal medium in the beginning to contact potential clients.

Maybe a boiler plated email with my company heading introducing myself and briefly explaining my service?

Thoughts or advice?

Thanks. It is good to see so a few guys really making it with their service sites!

My situation is a little different, but here's how I'm getting traffic:

Adwords - costs a little $ but worth it for driving good prospects for my niche
Industry Magazines - ads aren't cheap, but very targeted demographic that is responsive to my offers
e-zine articles - minimal time to get a few articles that rank well organically and drive decent and qualified traffic
squidoo - same as e-zine site
Networking with other related but non-competition sites/businesses - there are a few companies that target my same market but offer different services/products. If I like what they do and they like what I do - voila, an easy endorsed link or blog article
Videos on YouTube - not a lot of competing videos for my niche; which is probably true with a number of lucrative service businesses

The big one: I was featured in the leading industry magazine for financial advisors with a cover story on how my practice grew significantly despite the economy killing most financial advisors. This is tough to replicate, but if you truly are at the top of your game this type of free publicity is nearly priceless.

All of this takes some work - which I largely outsourced, so my time was minimal beyond writing articles. All submission of articles, press releases and emails to potential jv partners is done by my VA at Bpovia.

Good luck and hope this helps.

Jay

[maxpr]

My situation is a little different, but here's how I'm getting traffic:

Adwords - costs a little $ but worth it for driving good prospects for my niche
Industry Magazines - ads aren't cheap, but very targeted demographic that is responsive to my offers
e-zine articles - minimal time to get a few articles that rank well organically and drive decent and qualified traffic
squidoo - same as e-zine site
Networking with other related but non-competition sites/businesses - there are a few companies that target my same market but offer different services/products. If I like what they do and they like what I do - voila, an easy endorsed link or blog article
Videos on YouTube - not a lot of competing videos for my niche; which is probably true with a number of lucrative service businesses

The big one: I was featured in the leading industry magazine for financial advisors with a cover story on how my practice grew significantly despite the economy killing most financial advisors. This is tough to replicate, but if you truly are at the top of your game this type of free publicity is nearly priceless.

All of this takes some work - which I largely outsourced, so my time was minimal beyond writing articles. All submission of articles, press releases and emails to potential jv partners is done by my VA at Bpovia.

Good luck and hope this helps.

Jay

Great advice! Thanks Jay.

Gorgeous site by the way too. Financial services took a big hit but you seem to be catching everything on the upswing.

I am definitely saving this, thanks again.

[Peter Bowen]

I have a muse providing an online service - credit control for small businesses. It's at www.getting-paid.com.

It's been a fantastic learning experience building it.

Cheers

Pete

[maxpr]

Nice site Peter. I have also learned a LOT from developing my site which should be launched in another month or so God-willing.

Question for Jay if you happen to catch this; how did the ezine and industry mag processes go? I wrote for a newspaper a few years ago and it was relatively easy to contact certain writers but there is an intimidation factor when it comes to leading industry mags.

Thanks for the thoughts I never considered ezines. Brilliant! Thanks guys.

Best of luck to all of you too.

[jaywenk]

Nice site Peter. I have also learned a LOT from developing my site which should be launched in another month or so God-willing.

Question for Jay if you happen to catch this; how did the ezine and industry mag processes go? I wrote for a newspaper a few years ago and it was relatively easy to contact certain writers but there is an intimidation factor when it comes to leading industry mags.

Thanks for the thoughts I never considered ezines. Brilliant! Thanks guys.

Best of luck to all of you too.

Industry magazine contacted me directly. There are publicly available databases that show how much money advisers manage and most were down 30-50% in 2008 as stock markets got hammered. The mag looked through thousands of registration files and contacted the few firms that grew substantially - I happened to be one of them. The article is here -> http://registeredrep.com/advisorland/marketing/finance-client-time-suck-0701/

You should be able to figure out which one of the people interviewed was me. The writer was hoping for a cover story, but I guess the editor chose something else and the section I'm in became much smaller.

Googling of my name and company name must have shot up substantially as there are about 100,000 readers of the magazine because our web traffic is up huge for no reason other than google searches for those items. I would guess they're coming from the magazine. The writer liked my story, so hopefully they come to me in the future for further articles.

The ezines are just posted on ezinearticles.com. It's easy, not full of marketing plugs, and ranks very high on google for my keywords. All I did there was record via audio some general article concepts and sent them to my va - who then did a little more research, wrote the articles, sent a draft to me for approval, then published them. The links to my sites from there are the best links I have on the web.

[jetpacklife]

Like I've said here many times before, I don't understand why Tim didn't include Ad & service based sites in the online muse possibilities. I've created several online 'sticky' service sites (think fun and games for kids) and have done little marketing. I expand primarily by word of mouth, but also dominate in the SEO of my topic ( #1 in google for years) ..

Another famous service site run by one guy is plentyoffish.com .. He started the site to learn programming, and soon was making millions.

While the service based sites can be harder to start, a well designed and run software site can run almost completely automatic.

[camdengirl]

Max - where are you based? If it's the UK and you have a niche market then try www.marketingfile.com for buying in lists. Generally by applying really specific search criteria you can drill it down to small numbers of leads which don't cost very much.

Hope this helps!
C.

[maxpr]

Max - where are you based? If it's the UK and you have a niche market then try www.marketingfile.com for buying in lists. Generally by applying really specific search criteria you can drill it down to small numbers of leads which don't cost very much.

Hope this helps!
C.

Based in the US but the UK list would be very helpful. Thanks for the heads up Camden!

[maxpr]

So what did you guys do upon initial launch?

Who did you contact? Procedures? Etc...?

What should someone about to launch be concerned with?

Thanks
-Max

[maxpr]

How far out from initial site launch should one begin working with Google Adwords?

-Max

[nobodyreal]

maxpr,

What I'm starting is something abit different, I gather, from what you and the others are talking about, although I would call it a service site(SEO site). But it's using outsourced SEO, so labor costs are virtually nothing, but yet again, the most difficult aspect of a business seems to be marketing. :(

Thanks for starting this thread, I think that because the services that some of you are offering requires getting 'followers', while mine requires 'customers', the marketing methods will have to be a bit different. But I'm using a direct sales method: dialing for dollars. I just have three sales reps so far who are going to get $700 per SEO package they sell, but I'm considering raising the price to 1k a sale and giving them permission to outsource the selling...

Anyways, that's what I'm doing, though I realize I'm looking for customers so my sales process is quite different. Thanks for starting this thread though, it seems that everyone is going the product route. The great thing about Tim's advice is that it can be applied for any IT business fairly easily--there is no field that it's easier to outsource than IT.

[klaus]

I run a service based online business and was also disappointed after reading 4HWW that a product sales type is preferred by the author. However in my case its ads sales, online fan(for our site) store and some classifieds listings that generates enough income for me and my family. It took 10 years to get to this point and started out as a side thing I did on weekends etc.

I have to blog non stop. Go to events shoot motor sports action photos and moderate a busy forum. What 4HWW did for me is I hired a person to do all of those tasks. Its part time 3 days a week plus he is available most of the time for important posts or issues. I now train my helper in photoshop, dreamweaver and basic photo retouch to pick up more and more skills. Things I used to do every day. I my new gained time I develop the business and site.

Tim talks about VA's in the book. VA's could generate content.

A new project is a for pay classifieds project. Again a helper will approve and deny ads and collect fees.

For me it took a lot to let go and give up control. It can be done with a service/ads model.

Love this thread and the feedback. Keep it coming.

[REOBULK]

I work in the Real Estate industry and after building a "team" of agents and busting butt supervising them all the time.....now, the RE industry allows me to "refer" my leads and get 20-30% on the commission.
Lightbulb! I have worked it out with my Broker that I can become a "virtual agent", refer my leads to a selected team that I am folding my team into (which consists of only 2 agents right now) and THEY will manage the agents and distribute the leads. Deal closes and I get paid.

I am in the process of automating the Lead Generation engines I have (and I've had them for years) by out sourcing them to Ashok of http://virtual-assistance-india.com . I have it targeted and segmented, and replicable. I feel like I've "tested" it over the past few years and understand that the ROI is pretty good. I should have the numbers and know them but I don't. When I translate into a "Virtual Agent" I will be saving thousands per month AND gaining 30-40 hours per week (I've already been shifting hours to another business I am engaged in, which, BTW, can follow much the same model albeit different).

I know that I have a team that's local and could make several thousand per month, I can target geographically within my state. Hmmm.....

I'd love any suggestions, experience, and comments that might be helpful in the transition.

I think this falls under the thread, forgive me if it doesn't.

The info in this thread has been great thus far. Please keep it going!

[winvest]

MAXPR,
I am launching a online service business that has an offline component. It is Dental Handpiece repair service. I've posted about it on this forum below is the link.
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=4113

[David-Andrew]

As I said earlier int his post (I think): Yep!

I build software (I design it, engineers in the east build and support it). So, after I made a few cool software thingies, no more real work for me.