Anybody got any ideas....

[bkleader]

Does anybody got any ideas how to apply 4hww principles to a pastor/president of a church/non profit? I'm a 4hww newbie and will love some feedback.

[froldt]

I'm sure that you can apply the 80/20 principles. Find the work you are doing that produces the most results (however you are defining results: sermon finished, donations gathered, people saved). Is the rest really necessary or is it just filler?

Use the Low Info Diet. There are lots of publications that are available w/in the church. Do you need to read all of them? Is what you read really useful? If it's not useful except as a future reference, you might not need to spend the time reading it. Maybe recieve it in digital form and search through it at a later date, when you do need it.

Just a couple of thoughts off the top of my head.

[kamakiri]

I disagree there frol. Being a pastor is not compatible with the Pareto principle. The things that take the most time are personal contact with 'the flock'. Cutting that out really defeats the purpose of being a pastor in the first place.

Many other parts of the book can be easily applied though.

Basically the world needs people to make money to pay for service organizations. If you are running a church/non-profit, finding money is a non stop job. You can prime the pump in some cases. For example, getting $10 million in donations, and then operating the non-prof off of the interest.

Being the pastor of a church, asking for tithes, then taking time off while you pay people to operate the church (cleaning, phones, preparation, sanitation) is really akin to selling snake oil (throw me a bone here people, I am trying to sugar coat it).

Don't get me wrong here. There is nothing wrong with being a pastor or running a church. That job is not for me, but if it is for you, then you have to give up certain things, and one of those is the ideal of working 4 hours a week. They are pretty much mutually exclusive.

[Sven]

I think 80/20 does apply!

To me, applying 80/20 has given me very clear sight on where my efforts need to go. No matter what you do, the smallest part of your effort will always give the majority of the result.

For a priest that may result in changing focus. One could argue that serving mass would require to focus it on the needs of the many. That would leave out the ones that could really do with support.

To me serving the 80% that do relatively well would be a waste of time. Get that 80% involved in helping the 20% that need the help. Let them do 80% of the work.

The flock will fly itself. You need to focus on what really matters to you.

[kamakiri]

The flock will fly itself? Come on Sven. The only place a flock will fly itself is to another church. As unlikely as it may seem, I do go to church on a regular basis. (On a side note, if you read the New Testament, it reads very much like most of the self help books in the Amazon top 10 list).

Many things in life are very worthy of deep examination. Nothing has been more deeply examined than religion. Many of the rituals have been around for well over 2000 years. For example Dionysus, among many other gods, was born on December 25, thousands of years before Christ, and although we celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ on that same day, the bible says nothing about that actual date.

Sorry to get sidetracked there. My point is that religion has been analyzed over and over again for thousands of years. The things that work are tried and true proven techniques with very long histories and track records. Cutting out parts of that lifestyle really is not a viable option.

The same is true for non-profits. If you could find out a way to run one without constant solicitation of donations, and time intensive networking, you could retire tomorrow.

Instead of trying to fit an incompatible lifestyle into what you currently do and ending up with nothing, a much better option would be to change your occupation.

[Sven]

I was only refering to the pareto principle, not so much the 4hww.

Indeed, being a priest is a lifestyle and as such probably not easy to do in 4 hrs a week.

But I live in a world that is full of replies like "that is impossible". I never trust those remarks, wheter I'm the one making them or someone else.

And with regards to the non profits, I guess your definition of a non profit organisation must be different from mine.
I run one. Do not network, do not raise funds. Can not retire tomorrow...

If people want to be part of the flock, they will flock. If you have to work the flock to remain a flock you are wasting your time.

In writing this my original answer becomes even stronger to me.

In a flock, the pareto is more of a 99.9/0.01 thing. This means two things:
The chance of actually achieving a change is very slim.
If you do achieve a change it is very likely to be the result of a very small effort

If you can judge where to put that effort you have a big chance of getting very rich, whatever your definition of being rich may be.

[bkleader]

hey guys thanks for the feedback...I know people generally get heated talking about politics and religion
I know my choice in career (even though I have a full time admin job as well) is unconventional...but my choice to pastor is more of an internal call that may not be my life long endeavor...but for now I want to give my best...we are 2 and half years old

so far what I'm thinking is this

D-Define our church's goals for 2009 (i.e. put on outreach quality events B-Ball tourney for inner city youth, 4 Free SAT Prep classes, One day Potty training class, How to Pray seminar, increase membership to 100 members) Motivate people to define their spiritual goals for 2009 and hold them accountable and personally My goal is train 5 new leader/volunteers to lighten my load
E- Eliminate ministries or events that don't work.....I need to perhaps spend more time with the volunteer/leaders I have so they can have a greater capacity to fulfill their roles
A- Automate our marketing/Evangelism by having a Bible college use our church for practicum training
L -all this will liberate me to spend more time with my family (I have two jobs now so you can imagine how cool this will be) and to travel to other churches to see their model of leadership

What do you guys think?

I will love feedback so I can be the best leader possible
I'm joining the NY 4hww Meet up group

[froldt]

bkleader
I think you've got a good plan, now you have to put it to work.

Kam
I think we agree, we're just looking at it from different angles. I was thinking of more "in the office" work. If you are preparing sermons weekly and realize that you are only using 20% of your reference books, those other 80% might not be needed.
Likewise with the time spent, if you are basing success on people converted, where is your most successful work being done? This doesn't mean to give up on preaching at the university's free-speech area, but spend less time there and focus more on the venues which provide the greatest results.

[bkleader]

Thanks again for the feedback
I've checked out the forum and I realize that some of the senior members here give great feedback.
I learned that having a strong web presence is vital so I would like some feedback on my church's website because we are looking to make some upgrades ASAP
here is the link

www.vonorthbrooklyn.org

thanks

does anyone know if the NY group is any good?

[Sven]

Making a list here of things that strike me to expand on later:


Few things to click on exept menu items at the top
pictures non clickable and very big for the size of navigation at the top
Pictures of people at top are good, church is about people
Colorscheme could do with tweaking, clashing a bit, also on blog
Don't use text in pictures, can't be searched
Picture of you on blog is too big, loads too slowly
Having a blog is good, leads to spending more time on the site, maybe the blog needs to be part of the site in apearance
no clues about where you are on the site
Events make me expect an agenda, not a picture of past events
Past events with pictures of people atending would encourage more visits
Site is quite static, might benefit from user access for community communicating

[bkleader]

thanks
I already passed your comments on to the person helping me with the site