Learning Languages

[ficticius]

This is a goal of mine. I have been studying German and French for years but still lack the comprehension for fluency.

Any suggestions?

[jetpacklife]

Move to Germany and study German 4 hours a day like Tim did!

Seriously, I don't have any better suggestion. I'm horrible w/ learning languages myself.

[MiniBlueDragon]

I'd start with Rosetta Stone to get the basics and then relocate to that country to apply those basics and expand into fluency. :)

[ficticius]

Don't laugh. I've already researched the school in Berlin where Tim studied. I wish they had a school like that in New York!

I'm using Pimsleur and Rosetta Stone. Has anyone tried these?

I also went to NYU and studied but didn't get much fluency out of it. The professor was nice though.

[Drewkerr]

The biggest thing is interaction. The more you can use the language the quicker you will pick it up. Thats why imersing yourself in a culture is the easiet way to pick up & learn a language.

As far as French. Are there any good french cafes or restuerant (i know my spelling is horrible) near you that you can eat at a couple times a month. I know i have a cafe where the owner is French, you can get the menu in French or English, and half the wait staff speak french. The interaction would be a practical application of what you have learned.

[ficticius]

Yes there are plenty of restaurants in my area. Good idea. I am seriously considering going to the same 10 week class in Berlin that Tim went to.

Thing is, I'm new to this 4 hour work week thing and have just begun to consider how I can get 10 weeks off in a row.

I'm thinking about seeing if I can work from Berlin.

[AdamTeece]

Just remember it is always easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. I am living proof of that with having to get anything personal done in the Navy. If it is something I really need done, I almost never ask permission because the people in charge freak out if someones is going to be missing, but adapt quite well if the person just happens to not be there.

I am terrible with learning languages as well, but I definitely want to learn one. I just need to figure out what one I want to learn first, might be either spanish or german. I always wanted to learn Japanese, but it doesn't seem like it will be too useful just yet, other than for watching anime and playing imported video games.

[ficticius]

I'm using Pimsleur, Rosetta Stone and flash cards. What else has proven most effective? What has been your experience learning a language?

[RayBurton]

I set up a list of activities. Day/week/month/year. One of the daily things I do is go over the 100 english terms in Timsthe book but to learn spanish. I combine my stretching (static stuff of course) and study. I tried the home tutor method to get off the ground and it was good.

The real learner was 4 weeks in mexico. Refusing to speak english even when the waiters couldnt take my terrible spanish. Immersion is best once you have a foot hold. Try getting on the bus system in a strange land. You realise what words you need quick..because they come at you quick or you are walking. You can also try reading childrens books and listening to the language when falling asleep. Just my 2 cents.

[cheez avenger]

Also... found in the bonus tips section available to Tim's member page is the first part on learning a new language really fast.


I'm doing french, he recommends to watch 1 french movie a night with english subtitles.

I have tons of french movies on dvd, so no out of pocket expense there. I can use my netflix account to rent more french films.

You can use the system with any language, as long as the film is spoken in the native tongue.


-cheez avenger

[RayBurton]

Hey, I appreciate you taking the time to write down those tips. I think watching movies is a great idea and something that was in the back of my mind but never acted on....funny how that seems to be the case more often then not isnt it?

[cheez avenger]

Hey, I appreciate you taking the time to write down those tips. I think watching movies is a great idea and something that was in the back of my mind but never acted on....funny how that seems to be the case more often then not isnt it?




They serve a purpose, that's why I'm so against dubbing. I'd rather get entertained and educated at the same time. 2 birds with 1 stone.;)




-cheez avenger

[aarontcp]

Hey guys,

If you're looking for conversation exchanges, check out this site here: http://www.conversationexchange.com/

It looks a little amateurish, but I actually did manage a couple of people to practice with on there.

- Aaron

[drjudy]

If you're looking to learn Spanish like I am, here are some ideas that work...

... watch the Spanish television stations like Telemundo and Univision. I watch the news and many of the sports on there.

Also, pick up the local Spanish newspapers which have lots of pictures. Reading the Spanish children's books helps too.
- Dr. J

[final_id]

I concur on the television angle. I have learned a lot of "soccer Spanish" from Gol-TV and Univision. If you're up to snuff enough on a language to be marginally fluent, then you can start to pick up the rhythms and figure out the more slangy phrases used by watching popular TV shows in that language (or listening to radio).

But if you're more of a beginner in the language, then broadcast media are going to be going so fast and speaking so non-textbook that you won't catch much of it.

So, for starters, I think something like Rosetta Stone programs is a good idea. And then immersion. Diving into the culture gets you to "think in a foreign language" more, rather than thinking in English and then trying to translate your ideas. In fact, I doubt I could say anything about parking or setting the table in German, since I never did either of those things when I was traveling there. But I'm darn good with a train schedule!

Another thing to do is set aside a specific amount of time every day. Rather than using, say, Wednesday as your German day, instead do an hour EVERY day. There's a kind of Law of Increasing Returns if you do things regularly and daily rather than in big chunks, I think. Musical instruments are like that too.

YouTube has a lot of good popular music in foreign languages, and you can usually Google some of the lyrics. For French, find the singers Edith Piaf and Francoise Hardy -- both were big enough hits that there are fan-sites with lyrics ("paroles"), literal translations, English versions, etc.

I love learning languages ... and cultures. It's my longer-term hope for getting the Muse going! I'll be a-Muse-ing myself in Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Budapest ...

[monak]

I'm curious about Tim's aversion to language classes. Apart from actually going to your desired country and immersing yourself in the language and culture, you can either do self-learning or classes. I'm currently taking an Italian for Travelers class and debating whether to continue on with Italian I (more basics of grammar than phrases), or get something like Rosetta Stone and continue down that route. We're going to Italy next spring, but only for 10 days :D Forgot to add that I've been listening to Italian radio (www.icnradio.com) to get the language in my ear too, despite not understanding most of it!

I'd like to hear about anyone's personal experiences with Rosetta Stone. Is it as good as the SkyMall ads make it out to be? :rolleyes:

[final_id]

A lot of traditional language classes are what most educators would call "grammar based." That's good if you're going to go into a long-term love-affair with the language. But it's not the most rapid means to attaining a minimum level of ability for day-to-day conversation. Tim's aversion to the traditional language class is essentially that he wants the quickest route to THAT goal -- being able to hang out at a bar, get an apartment, maybe buy a dress shirt in Buenos Aires -- rather than being able to read Borges or Marquez with a dictionary. One disadvantage to Tim's method is, that there comes a point where "conversational familiarity" (which you would gather rapidly from immersion, but not at all from traditional grammar-based classes) can only teach you so much about more complicated forms and ideas. In order to get to final, true fluency, you'll eventually HAVE TO get involved in a grammar-based instruction of some sort, and that will feel like returning to square one.

Each method has its advantages. If you "pick up" languages easily, then you probably can "do both" by a mainstream immersion plus buying a grammar book on the side and figuring out the more complicated stuff on your own. But if you don't have that facility with languages, then one method is going to have pitfalls which are alleviated by the other method.

And none of that addresses what is perhaps the biggest requirement in mastering any foreign language: memorizing masses of vocabulary. For example, you'll hear the same 500 nouns over and over in a restaurant or a bar, and never get any others, and the repetition will both aid you in memorizing that limited set, and also hinder you (because of time and familiarity) in mastering any other set. Almost any method is going to require, at some point, sitting down and making lists on paper or flash-cards, and then just ... memorizing. There's no avoiding that, if you want to gain any ability more rapidly than would "naturally" happen.

[seven]

Someone pointed out this site to me and I haven't tried it out yet. But in case anyone is interested it's http://albis.vetsin.com/

It's like free online vocabulary lessons. You have to register so that it can track your performance so that you have to reach a sufficient performance on one level before progressing to the next.

7

[monak]

Seven, that website is perfect for my italiano dreamline. Molto grazie!

[cartoonfan1983]

Very cool! Thanks!

[wa1den]

I can give a few observations & suggestions. For starters, you gotta have serious incentive to really learn a language, and that means opportunity to use it, in the case of most folks. Embarassment is your enemy, since if you don't make use of what limited language skills you may so far have, then the old adage of "use it or loose it" kicks in. You will also find that often the act of sitting in a class and attempting to "force feed" yourself voluminous amounts of a foreign language can lead to discouragement, since when you try to learn enough german or spanish to choke a horse all in one session, your retention & comprehension typically are lousy. I will tell you what can help a great deal, based on experience with spanish & portuguese. Typically you will find that there are several templates of verbs (variations of verbs that follow specific patterns that can be learned). In spanish, for example, there are 3 basic ones... verbs that end in ir, verbs that end in er, and verbs that end in ar. Most verbs will fit nicely into the pattern, and if you pick only one verb from each - or several if you feel truly ambitious - you take these representative verbs and commit them to memory, with all their various tenses, past, present and future. You have to memorize them to the point that they become so automatic for you that you no longer even have to stop and think about it. The key is to do this with just a few samples, so that the task is not overwhelming. Once you get this down, you now have burned into your memory banks the basic patterns that almost all the other verbs fit into. This gives you a frame of reference to plug new ones into, in which you will immediately recognize the forms, whether they refer to past, present, or future, and when you hear native speakers, you will begin to pick out & recognize some of these that would otherwise have gone right over your head, so to speak. At this point you can begin working on some vocabulary, but be carefull not to bite off too much at once. The emphasis should be on truly assimilating lesser amounts, versus covering vast volumes of new material, otherwise you just won't retain it well. And you are going to need access to a few people to use it on, hopefully on a regular basis, or you are back to the use it or lose it thing again. Ok -now you will find that the first period is the toughest, because your frame of reference to plug new stuff into is so limited. However, it is kinda like a jigsaw puzzle. When you first dump those pieces all out on the table, nothing seems to make any sense (once again, no frame of reference), but as you begin to get a few pieces in place, you will find that the more pieces you place the easier it is to see where the rest of them fit. The same is true of learning a language. If you can keep from becoming discouraged during the initial phases, you will find that your learning or assimilation of the new language begins to accelerate at an ever-increasing rate - that is, exponentially, due to this "jigsaw puzzle" phenomenon. As your frame of reference grows, your ability to assimilate more material expands. Consider that if you were to learn 5 new words in english today you wouldn't feel the least bit overwhelmed. But if they are foreign words, you tell yourself this is supposed to be hard, so the psychological effect of that helps undermine your confidence, on top of not having the same extensive frame of reference in the new language as in your native english. Ok - so, I guess I have about talked everybody into the ground by this point... so, go learn a new language. I also suggest that you carry around 3 x 5 note cards, and when you find yourself in a situation where you wanted to say something to some other person in the new language but didn't know how, just make a note in english of what it was you wanted to say, then when you can get to a dictionary, or preferably to a person who is fluent in the language, and who you trust, get them to tell you how you should have said it. Things learned in this way will be retained much better that information force-fed in a classroom situation. Ok - enough for now... tomorrow's lesson will begin on page 134. Answer the questions at the end of the chapter. :D

[Bippy]

I have not had great luck with the pimsluer and rosetta stone material, but have been more impressed with the poorly packaged/not as shiny sets from AudioForum.

These are the materials that they give people in the US government when they need to be functional in a language right-a-frikken-way.

I also picked up a tip for vocabulary retention. Take the word and try to draw a funny picture about it that's sort of a pun. That involves your kinesthetic sence, visual, auditory and uses a lot of different parts of your brain, and the more parts of your brain you use, the better you remember things.

Hope that helps.

[final_id]

Cool suggestion, I'm going to use that in the classes I teach. I always tell them to draw pictures, write and read the word, speak it out loud, and act it out (as many senses as possible), but you've managed to combine them all in one act. :)

[wando]

I had experience with Rosetta Stone, Pimsleur, almost all boxes with phrasebook/dictionary/cds you can imagine with different levels of success in 10 different languages - it is not much the product, but rather your motivation.

I am just writing this quick reply here now to have it to my subscribed threads and return to this topic.

[italian_job]

hello

in my experience, if you can install a satellite tv dish that broadcasts TV stations in the language you are interested in, then that will help you.

Also, at the beginning use the subtitles function (many programs are enabled) to watch your favourite TV programs in the language you want to learn.

Then move the country where they speak that language...and get a local girlfriend! :) This way you will learn the language and also the culture (you will be surprise how challenging but also rewarding relationships with people from other cultures can be).



hope this helps,

Dan

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[final_id]

Watch soccer. Many more games on the Spanish-language network in the USA, and much more chance for interaction with people from different linguistic cultures. American football, baseball, and (to a large extent) basketball are profoundly xenophobic institutions.

[clanshrapnel]

For flashcard help to memory vocabulary/phrases, I highly advise the following:

mnemosyne (http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org)(free)
supermemo (http://www.supermemo.com/) (98 version is free)
memorylifter (http://www.memorylifter.com/)(also free)
anki (http://ichi2.net/anki/)(free, but specialized in Japanese)

All use variations of spaced repetition (Leitner method or variations). It seems like Mnymosyne is the most recommended, but you may want to do your own research to see if any version is particularly better for you. MemoryLifter has also come quite a ways since it was first offered and reviewed. I personally use Mnemosyne for Spanish.

[taoist]

I've used Rosetta Stone as a basis and it does well to build vocabulary but I'm wondering if anyone has tried GMS which so happens to be developed by a Russian and their language section is using Russian as the example throughout. Russian is a launguage I'm working on now.
True, immersion is best, but for prelim. work this looks interesting.
Anyone?

[VagabondingEntrepreneur]

For self-studying I would suggest a structured program like the courses from the Foreign Service Institute (available for free: http://www.freelanguagecourses.com/direct-downloads/). As stated above an SRS (i.e. Anki) is very important and should be used daily.

[sub8hr]

In general I'm not a big fan of flash cards as they encourage single word association, and often create an irreversible tendency to use certain words incorrectly. Except for some basic nouns and verbs, words in another language often don't map 1:1 in meaning, connotation, and social context. Compound this with every other word in your sentence being slightly incorrect and the end result is that native speakers never quite know what you're trying to say.

If you use flashcards, they should have example sentences on them. If your cards don't, many dictionaries are great in that they give you example sentences of the most common usage of words. If you can't find any to suit your needs, you can even make your own, which also adds to the learning process by integrating the whole write-see-think complex. That said, I made over 6,000 of my own flash cards when I was learning Japanese and got pretty damn good at it as a result.

[TimW]

Learn to make mistakes.

That's the biggest reason I was able to surpass most of my cohorts in graduate school. I took the time to actually try and speak the language with native speakers (who were on campus for an executive education program and spoke no English). I spent nearly every non-studying waking hour with them. I still have the page-worn Langenscheidt's pocket Spanish-English/English-Spanish dictionary...and I still refer to it.

Most people tend to overthink what they're going to say, and end up stalling and trying to put together the perfect sentence. It won't happen. Just say it. If they don't understand, they'll ask you to repeat it.

As for listening, again, people try and translate rather than interpret. Sometimes translation is required, but when you try and do that, you're looking for exact phrases in your home language and you end up missing out on the rest of what the person was saying.

Frankly, when I was taking Spanish, I really didn't care if I got the tense wrong...if I did and noticed it, I'd correct myself. I mean, if an English learner said to me "I go to the store yesterday" instead of "I went...", am I really NOT going to understand what was meant?

If I knew they were open for corrections (like a friend learning English), I would tell them. If I didn't understand (I will be going to the store yesterday), I would ask a question to clarify.

Make mistakes. Break the language. That's how you learn.

[David_D]

Hi
I moved to Switzerland at the begining of November. I started to learn German at the begining of December using the following method...

- A learn German download of an old BBC radio show.
- Self made flash cards
- TV

I do 2 15 min radio shows last thing at night before going to sleep, and then I repeat them after morning exercise in order to refresh.

I learn and use one flash card a day, the flash card has a phrase I am likely to use. I watch tele in German one hour a night while stretching after a run. I have no choice in this as the only English speaking TV I have is CNN which as we know is a no-no on the low information diet.

I admit its easier to learn a language when you have opportunity to use it every day. But I can already hold a basic conversation in German, and I understand even more.

I will continue this learning method until the end of January, and I will begin Spanish in order to get a good base of Spanish/Portuguese before I head off to Chile for the next part of my adventure.

I hope this helps

[Free4Family&Community]

Just joined this thread and I am so happy as I want to learn to speak French. I have very very basic knowledge from school many years ago & I want to learn it so that my son can be fluent in it. Does anyone suggest good French children's programs that I can get on dvd?

[Free4Family&Community]

I am now thinking of getting my favourite programs on dvd then setting it to play in French...Doh why did I not think of that before I posted earlier. I love Sex in the City so I can watch that in French!!!!! I am so excited....
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Now thinking again....
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Is it OK to watch English speaking programs in French? Or should I watch proper original French programs/movies so I learn to speak french properly????

[sub8hr]

I watched both native programs and translated programs when I was learning Japanese. I think they both have their place. There is definitely a different translated feel to it when you're watching a non-native program. A lot of that has to do with different cultural context. Translated programs can help you connect the dots in translating more figurative language. Native programs help you wrap the words around the cultural context. There's also a lot of value in watching native programs with English subtitles when you are first learning. It's difficult to catch all of the words, and the translations can help you piece things together without getting hopelessly lost in idioms or checking your dictionary every 20 seconds.

[Free4Family&Community]

I watched both native programs and translated programs when I was learning Japanese. I think they both have their place. There is definitely a different translated feel to it when you're watching a non-native program. A lot of that has to do with different cultural context. Translated programs can help you connect the dots in translating more figurative language. Native programs help you wrap the words around the cultural context. There's also a lot of value in watching native programs with English subtitles when you are first learning. It's difficult to catch all of the words, and the translations can help you piece things together without getting hopelessly lost in idioms or checking your dictionary every 20 seconds.

thanks for ypur advice..... :0) :D

[swoop]

How to Learn Any Language by Barry Farber is a good book.

There's a good explanation of this type of vocabulary learning:

The Hebrew word for "to speak" is "medaber".
So, imagine one day you walked through a forest and "met a bear" that could speak!

That was one of his examples, paraphrased by me.

Here's one of my own that took about two or three seconds to create:

The Spanish for woman is "mujer". Imagine a woman riding a cow (as you might ride a horse). She has long, flowing blonde hair, which is starting to get into the cow's eyes, so the cow complains, "Moo, hair!"

Try it! It might seem like a lot of effort but in fact it's much quicker, and more fun than the typical "hard work" method.

[Free4Family&Community]

How to Learn Any Language by Barry Farber is a good book.

There's a good explanation of this type of vocabulary learning:

The Hebrew word for "to speak" is "medaber".
So, imagine one day you walked through a forest and "met a bear" that could speak!

That was one of his examples, paraphrased by me.

Here's one of my own that took about two or three seconds to create:

The Spanish for woman is "mujer". Imagine a woman riding a cow (as you might ride a horse). She has long, flowing blonde hair, which is starting to get into the cow's eyes, so the cow complains, "Moo, hair!"

Try it! It might seem like a lot of effort but in fact it's much quicker, and more fun than the typical "hard work" method.
great. I'll for it on amazon. :0)

[jkendrick]

For those with experience with Rosetta Stone, I am just starting Spanish (Latin America) and I'm wondering how I should approach it. So, a couple of questions:

1. Is it important to use the microphone or is the clicking of the multiple choices sufficient. Trying to sneak a lesson in here and there without having to speak aloud will be much easier.

2. Should I repeat lessons until I have them wired? In other words, if I scored in the 90th percentile for lesson one, should I just move on or repeat it until it is completely wired? Will the lessons building on themselves make repeating the lessons unnecessary?

Thanks!

[maxpr]

Get a German and French girlfriend! Works for me with my German :).

Really though, I think looking for local classes (typically German heritage association, or local community classes, community college etc) are a good start.

My mother found an ad for a free local one day a week German class when I was back home. Helped a lot. Mainly in motivating me since the class was interactive and it could be quite embarassing to not know how to reply to ?s. They also have a German Heritage Association here in my city that has classes for a small fee too. They should have TONS in NY.

I was never overly impressed with Rosetta Stone, but do not rule it out as it may be a good choice for you.

Also, one the greatest resources of all (not sure why people always forget this) THE PUBLIC LIBRARY SYSTEM!!!!!! There is a wealth of FREE knowledge there. Check books out and see which works best for you. I would suggest learning some basic conversational along with following through a grammar book.

I have learned a little German, but it is enough to continue building on into the future until I can be fully immersed in the language.

Good luck!

[Frank]

I recently took out an intro Spanish CD set by Michel Thomas and really liked it.

He gets you started with sentences right away. You won't learn things like numbers, days of the week and such, but you get usable language very quickly.

What I really like is that he points out similarities with other languages. For example, he notes that there are about 1200 words in the English language that end in "tion", like nation, determination, and such. Well, all of those words (with only a couple of exceptions) end in "cion" in Spanish. So, you already have a 1200 word vocabulary!

He shows other similarities as well, so you really feel like you're making progress.

Unfortunately, now I'm spoiled. I tried a couple of other CD sets from the library but they don't measure up to his. Plus, the library only had the Intro Spanish set in their collection, so now I'm kinda stuck.

He's got sets in several languages - I saw French and German at my library as well.

Good luck!