“The thing about the government is that they can accuse you of something, ruin your life, you can be completely innocent and you don’t get compensated.” – Patrick Arnold
At the behest of my astute legal counsel, here is a legal disclaimer for this episode:
First, I am not recommending, endorsing, or supporting any of the substances or compounds (especially illegal) discussed or described in the interview. I am interviewing Patrick Arnold as a journalist seeking additional information regarding matters of public interest and concern.
Second, I have removed some of the names of athletes who are alleged to have used performance enhancing drugs. I recognize that this seems excessive, but even if athletes have been publicly banned for drug usage, unless the ban relates to the specific substance and time period referenced in the podcast, I can be sued for defamation for repeating or publicizing these stories.
With all that said, here we go…
If you liked my episode with Dom D’Agostino, Ph.D., you might love this one.
Patrick Arnold, widely considered “the father of prohormones,” is an organic chemist known for introducing androstenedione (remember Mark McGwire?), 1-Androstenediol (marketed as “1-AD”), and methylhexanamine into the dietary supplement market.
He also created the designer steroid tetrahydrogestrinone, best known as THG and “the clear.” THG, along with two other anabolic steroids that Patrick manufactured (best known: norboletone), were not banned at the time of their creation. They were hard-to-detect drugs at the heart of the BALCO professional sports doping scandal, which thrust Barry Bonds and others into the spotlight. BALCO distributed these worldwide to world-class athletes in a wide variety of sports, ranging from track and field to professional baseball and football.
Recently, Patrick has been innovating in the legal world of ketone supplementation, including breakthroughs in performance and taste with products like KetoForce and KetoCaNa, which were highlighted during my podcast with Dominic D’Agostino, Ph.D.
If you’d like to meet the (in)famous Patrick Arnold in person, you can find him at The Arnold Classic in Columbus, Ohio from March 3-6, 2016 at Booth 328.
Otherwise, you can check out his current concoctions for athletes here and here.
In this science-dense conversation, we cover a ton, mostly related to better performance through chemistry. We also discuss Patrick’s biggest successes and mistakes, his path to science, ursolic acid and other clever creations, exogenous ketone supplementation for sports, as well as nonsense in the media about anabolics (e.g., current Delta-2 scandal).
Short on time? Listen to this segment on how an internet chat forum led to one of the biggest scandals in sports history.
Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the transcript of this episode here. Transcripts of all episodes can be found here.
Want to hear another podcast related to enhanced human performance from another chemist? Listen to my conversation with Dom D’Agostino, Ph.D. In this episode, we discuss fasting, ketosis, and the end of cancer (stream below or right-click here to download):
QUESTION(S) OF THE DAY: What is your philosophy on the use of performance enhancing chemicals? Please let me know in the comments.
Scroll below for links and show notes…
Selected Links from the Episode
- Learn more about gynecomastia (AKA – bitch tits)
- Check out the Arnold Classic
- Check out FitCon
- Learn more about 6-OXO
- Learn more about tetrahydrogestrinone (THG)
- Check out the Merck Index, a compilation of natural compounds
- Watch the documentary Bigger Stronger Faster
- My ketone measurement tool – Precision Xtra Blood Glucose and Ketone Monitoring System
- Breathalyzer ketone measurement tool – The Ketonix Device
- Check out KetoCaNa, Prototype Nutrition’s exogenous ketone product
- Learn more about Ian Danney (Note: Danney-Ball), Optimum EFX and Amino Matrix
- Learn more about Metformin
- Jack Kennedy by Chris Matthews
- Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond
- To purchase Patrick Arnold products visit:
Prototype Nutrition (Facebook) | E-Pharm (Facebook)
- Learn more from Patrick Arnold:
KetoSports.com (Facebook) | PatrickArnoldBlog.com
Show Notes
- How Patrick Arnold developed a passion for bodybuilding, chemistry, and anabolic steroids [5:12]
- How Patrick started making his own chemical concoctions [9:31]
- How Patrick decided to create designer steroids [13:31]
- Patrick’s concept of prohormones [17:57]
- Describing the progression from androstenediol to 4-androstenediol (4-AD) to 1-androstenediol (1-AD) [22:07]
- Elaborating on Patrick’s “learning experience” with methadone derivatives [29:57]
- How Patrick weaned himself off methadone [34:42]
- Other athletic enhancement drugs, which have high abuse potential [39:12]
- The biggest waste of money for athletes and competitors in terms of supplements [44:49]
- The compounds Patrick created that he is most proud of [47:45]
- The story of when DEA came after Patrick Arnold’s company [55:12]
- How Patrick came in contact with Victor Conte [58:32]
- Distinguishing between anabolic and androgenic steroids [1:10:05]
- How tetrahydrogestrinone (THG) came about and why it was so weird [1:16:39]
- Drugs that should not be used with anabolic agents [1:22:56]
- What is ursolic acid and when will it become available again? [1:25:42]
- If IGF-1 production is increased from ursolic acid products, at what point is cancer risk elevated? [1:32:31]
- Thoughts on quickly learning rudimentary organic chemistry [1:33:57]
- Patrick’s yohimbe experiment [1:36:21]
- When will we be able to measure our own BHB levels without blood? [1:40:41]
- How Patrick was introduced to the world of exogenous ketones [1:45:07]
- What are the most interesting applications of exogenous ketones? [1:51:27]
- Who should be wary of consuming exogenous ketones or KetoCaNa [1:55:37]
- Personal attributes that have been important to his success with making new chemicals [1:56:47]
- When do the best ideas come to you? [1:59:05]
- Typical morning routines [2:00:12]
- Patrick Arnold’s workout drink and routine [2:01:12]
- Thoughts on longevity and expanding lifespan [2:03:37]
- When you think of the word successful, who is the first person who comes to mind and why? [2:05:58]
- Most gifted books [2:06:50]
- The most common misconceptions about Patrick Arnold [2:08:12]
- Advice for your thirty-year-old self [2:10:30]
- Patrick Arnold’s comments on Delta-2 [2:12:37]
- Performance enhancing drugs and therapies which we will be hearing about in the next few years [2:16:52]
- Thoughts on selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMS) [2:19:31]
- Particular molecules that are exceptionally beautiful [2:23:44]
People Mentioned
The Tim Ferriss Show is one of the most popular podcasts in the world with more than one billion downloads. It has been selected for "Best of Apple Podcasts" three times, it is often the #1 interview podcast across all of Apple Podcasts, and it's been ranked #1 out of 400,000+ podcasts on many occasions. To listen to any of the past episodes for free, check out this page.
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Very excited to listen to this one. From the disclaimer there will hopefully be a link for where to buy radioactive spiders 😀
What is the brand name of Patrick’s Ursolic Acid product(s)?
Prototype nutrition.. here you go: http://prototypenutrition.com/ur-spray.html
I’m neutral on PEDs so long as they are available to all who want them. The NFL is brutal on human bodies playing the game. CTE and broken fingers and painful joints all attest to the price they pay to play a game for a very high salary and the adulation of millions. Most say would do it again. PEDs are no different. Yes, there is a price to pay but let the individual decide
I learned a little about chemistry through the Khan Academy (khanacademy.org). Their short courses are great…and free.
man, this podcast is dope! 🙂
The dogs crack me up 🙂
Is that “World’s Most Famous Performance-Enhancement Chemist” another fake specialist/liar,like Scorpion/Walter O’Brien?
I’m really disappointed that you haven’t commented on that…
Patrick Arnold is definitely the real deal. Despite what the host wishes to call him, Patrick is a pretty humble guy. I couldn’t see him calling himself that.
While he could easily write a book or going on some media tour that would sell a lot he has done a good job keeping to himself. He was literally the “chemist to the stars” if you will. Patrick never sought the fame though so that’s why people don’t really know about him like they do Conte, perhaps.
I didn’t listen to the podcast yet, but I look forward to it.
Bookmarked for tomorrow morning. I can’t wait listening to this zipping on a coffee 🙂
I haven’t even listened to this podcast yet and I haven’t commented on any of them either. However, this will be the greatest on yet, because you read a legal disclaimer. Clicking the play button now…..
In the interest of learning Organic Chem…
I started with Khan Academy, then took a few MOOC courses, then reached out to local chemists. One took me under his wing and is doing one on one work with me in a lab synthesizing in an area that we are both very interested in. He teaches, I pay for all the materials. (He is also interested in raising money for a biz and I happen to be incredible at raising money. So, we both get something out of this deal.)
Tim,
Very solid podcast. I haven’t seen your analytics but the human performance genre podcast probably cover a large portion of your listening audience and are probably pretty popular. Between Dom’s interview, Attia and Patrick Arnold you’ve built a good basis for people interested in performance enhancement via Ketones, diet manipulation ,etc. I’m headed down to CBus for the Arnold this weekend so I’ll be sure to look up Patrick as we have some mutual friends.
Something I wanted to suggest privately but your filters/handlers screen out is I have a friend who I’d like to make an introduction to you who would make a fascinating guest. Dr. Brett Osborn is a neurosurgeon by day and an anti-aging subspecialist. Basically he’s a proponent of anti-aging and HRT medicine to prevent the issues that will cause you to see him for spinal fusions, and other degenerative diseases. We’ve been discussing and using ketones for not only performance enhancement purposes but also anti inflammation and anti-aging benefits for quite a while now and I think you’d have a lot to talk to him about.
He’s also a monthly contributor to Iron Man magazine on anti aging and optimal living as well as a great figurehead for the Life Extension community.
Feel free to google him or check out his page – Just google him as I know links are frowned upon – and as although it would be a science heavy discussion you could get into the root of all aging, optimal hormone replacement therapies, current healthcare trends and a ton of other fascinating topics of cutting edge protocols and better living through science. (He also utilizes stem cell technologies, etc.). Anyways, Brett’s the real deal and would make a good podcast and value to your listeners but knowing how you are a serial self experimenter (much like myself) I know you would get value out of the connection. Just reach out to me back channel if you want an intro to him or his office, etc.
Anyways, keep up the good work.
Regards,
Andrew Kuhn
P.S. – We met back at your original launch party for 4 Hour Workweek back in ’06 in SF w/ Eben, Joe Polish and Chris Daigle back in 2009. (I believe you were break dancing at that party). I was the real estate guy up in Detroit – hope all is well and if you want Brett’s contact info just let me know.
Tim,
I have been a long-time fan and reader, but are you really not going to address the fraud you interviewed a couple weeks back? I am sure — more than anybody — you understand how not doing so will significantly undermine your credibility.
Hi Tim, I searched but could not place the new product Patrick mentioned would be coming out soon that decreases blood glucose and increases glucose eliminated in the urine to assist in faster entry into ketosis. Is it out yet and do you know what it’s called? Also “man-breasts” are what we called them where I grew up. A little less harsh, bitch tits made me shudder for some reason. 🙂 Thanks for great great stuff!!!!
Also interested in this information; the product that reduces blood glucose.
I’ll chime in as a third person who would really like that information.
It’s called Ketoforce, I’ve been on it for the last two weeks, it’s the most powerful appetite suppressant I’ve used. I also got into Ketosis in about 2 days – highly recommend!
In 2 hours…I knew a couple of those words.
The decreasing glucose/ increasing eliminated glucose thing- Dr Attia explained doing that simaltaneously with an IV in each arm and it was the stupidest thing he’d ever done, very nearly killed him.
This guy reminds me of Michele Ferrari 🙂 by the way the doco The Armstrong Lie is enthralling viewing, really a must see. Personal interviews right through his career until the end
Nice disclaimer Tim but I note you forgot to put them on the two episodes you did about psychedelics. Inconsistent?
Something like ‘ these are illegal pretty much in every country, theycan cause irreversible mental illness and emotional dysfunction not limited to schizophrenia and psychosis, you may jump out of a high rise under the influence, and even if you think you are having a good time you’ll do catastrophic invisible damage to your energy / subtle body that may only manifest in your physical life years later as extremely bad fortune. Worse yet- you may start behaving like timothy leary or john lennon, and justify your behaviour whenever possible. You have been warned ‘
Enjoyed the interview. My only critique is this: Arnold is obviously an intelligent individual but his over-use of the expression “and what not” detracts from this. Maybe he is even unaware of this habit. I even noticed Tim said it towards the end of the interview. I wonder whether Tim said it to indirectly make Arnold take notice.
never heard that before. now its gonna bug me all weekened 🙁
Great Interview Patrick, the KetoCaNa is a great product, keep it up !
patrick –
this interview has become a guilty pleasure – probably listened to it
about 10x by now – and yeah you use that expression a lot but it fits with your personality!
don’t worry about it, everybody has verbal stuff they use as ‘go-to’s’
definately look forward to meeting you at some point, really appreciate your candidness and approach
I see why some athletes do it. People demand a lot and unless you have a hard work ethic you could fall easily in the sports industry. A lot comes from how the media and society portrays atheletes. Expecting them to be gods, negating the fact that they are as human as you or me. For me ,I don’t support any type of shortcut. That’s what performance drugs are. Besides the side effects pro/cons aren’t worth it.
Hi Tim,
I am a huge fan of your books and the podcast. However, after listening to your interview with Mr. Arnold I couldn’t help but to wonder how your younger fans would hear what Mr Arnold had to say. Stealing drugs from his parents? Taking four times the recommended dosage? Creating drugs in your garage and taking them? Experimenting with different combinations of drugs? It all seems rather insane to me even with the disclaimer, and I thought that this interview glorified him. I know I sound like a grumpy old man alarmist here. That being said… keep up the great work!
Any update on Walter Obrien? Am I expected to vet this guy if I want to be confident he didn’t make up everything in this interview?
You lost a fan Tim, I guess you can afford to but I find it unnecessary and depressing.
“I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they’ve always worked for me.” – Hunter S. Thompson
Performance enhancing substances will always be tried and used in competitive endeavors. The harmful ones should be banned for the protection of the users who won’t protect themselves.
Science is rad. Humans are rad. That’s all.
Extremely fascinating and informative. Well done.
So in the light of the Scorpion thing (still unadressed – hmm) I decided to do some research on this guy as well – in part due to the fact that Tim seemingly copy/pasted the majority of the intro text from wikipedia (which is not bad per se).
– Is he a chemist? Yes, he has a bachelor in chemistry from University of New Haven
– Is he a research scientist? No, he has no publications in peer-reviwed journals. However, he has several patterns that will show up on google scholar.
– Is he a crook? He was found guilty and served 3 months in prison for his crimes relating to the BALCO scandal. Following his sentence,
Arnold said, “I’m very regretful for what I’ve done and especially what it has precipitated in sports and society. Now, more than ever, I’m very much against sports doping. I do believe there should be a level playing field, and this whole thing needs to be addressed.” He also (through his lawyer) conveyed that he was mostly making the drugs due to scientific curiosity.
I will leave it to you whether you believe that he actually regrets his actions and the other claims. Tim clearly chose not to pursue this topic too much, but I think it is worth considering.
– Is he a conman? No, his businesses are real and people have actually bought and tried the products from what I can see.
– Do the products work? They seem to be mostly founded on real science published in peer-reviwed journals papers. However, the specific compunds have not been the subject of randomized controlled studies. As a disclaimer, I am not a chemist and was not able to critically review whether the portrayed mechanisms act as described on the company websites.
All in all it certainly seems that Tim avoided Scorpion#2, despite Arnold’s controversial character. I would, however, personally have appreciated a little less dodging of the “hard topics” like his incarcement.
i have been listed as an author in many papers along with Dr. D’agostino over the past few years. Peer Reviewed Journals. I also have been listed as an inventor in several patents. But even if none of this were the case, why would it disqualify me from being a research scientist? I am in my lab right now starting at all my equipment. Is it here for decoration? No i use it. To do chemistry. Much of it research on processes to develop compounds more cheaply and efficiently
I would have welcomed Tim bringing up the whole trial and incarceration stuff. There a dozens of cool things we skipped over. 2.5 hours can only fit in so much
Hi Tim. Big fan! 🙂 Do you recommend anything for tendinitis of the hand? (I don’t do any repetitive movements – I guess my body is prone to tendinitis). I experimented with Bromelain (a proteolytic enzyme) but it made me gain a ton of weight. It really helped, but gaining about 4 pounds a day on it wasn’t worth it…. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for everything! (BTW, I lost that weight using ice!
Hey Luda,
I’m not Tim, but I’ve written a book about (Patellar) Tendonitis.
For supplements, you want to check out vitamin c, hydrolyzed collagen, and liquid fish oil. They all help increase collagen synthesis inside the tendon according to academic research.
Additionally, be sure to rule out systemic causes of soft-tissue problems such as taking non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, corticosteroids, and even anti-biotics (Google levofloxacin side effects or ciprofloxacin side effects for more information).
Lastly, mobilize your lower arm musculature with self-massage. If you google Kelly Starrett hand tendonitis or wrist tendonitis or carpal tunnel I’m sure you’ll find something on YouTube.
– Martin
Yeah solid do. Hearing someone knowledgeable about steroids cleared up a lot of stereotypes.
Prepare yourself: BHB supplements are coming.
Tim-
In the same vein as Deborah Linehan’s comment/question below, can you tell us any more about the new product that aids in Ketosis that is mentioned at the end of the episode? Also I am very interested in experimenting with fasting and am wondering how you specifically have used KetoCana to aid in reaching ketosis? When and how much per day during a fast are you using the KetoCana? Thank you kindly for all of your hard work and inspiration!
Hi Tim. I wish your podcast was in video format with a subtitle function so we have an option to translate your content and share with non-English speakers ( e.g. YT or TED Talk). Would you consider? Love your work.
Hi Tim. I wish your podcast was in a video format so we could add subtitles in different languages to share with non-English speakers. Would you consider? P.S. Love your work.
What service would you use for this. Is DotSub still viable?
Hi Tim, missed your comment. yes I think it still is…though I haven’t thought through the process completely. All I know is, the only content I can point out to any foreigners (mostly Japanese for my instance) to refer to is your TED Talk. I know you have YT version of your podcast but no one will watch 2 hour video just to read the subtitles. Your content is way too valuable to be only available in English.
Tim,
You ask a lot of great questions but this time I think you passed up some simple ones that could have made the podcast more relevant to a lot of us ordinary folks. For example: “What have you learned about supplements, anabolic products, etc., that ordinary folks can use to help them improve health and fitness? Do anabolic products create short-term benefits but long-term damage, or is that a misconception? Are there benefits to using anabolic products, perhaps, for just short periods? Similar question for nootropics.
The discussion got a bit esoteric but I never learned some of the basics. Or maybe you’ve already done a more basic podcast?
I have never paused a podcast to Google stuff so many times.
Great info from a guy who knows his business.
Fascinating interview. What an interesting and complex guy. His drive and focus toward his goals is equally admirable and questionable. Dan the sadist was his mentor? That was a little creepy…
Breaking Bad?
Tim you could buy the examkracker chemistry and organic chemistry books for MCAT for studying chemistry you can also get examkracker 1001 chemistry and organic chemistry practice book for mcat practice to understand more. These books are only 100 pages each and will teach you all you need. to know about chemistry and organic chemistry at a basic level.
Great advice! I’ll grab them now. Thank you.
Wonderful stuff. I’m curious, though, what is the status of 6-oxo now? It seems like it’s legal, but is it possible to buy it anywhere?
The FDA issued a letter that basically said it’s not legal to sell as a dietary supplement. So either go the full FDA approved drug route, or see if you can find a grey market overseas pharmacy that sells it.
I don’t live in the US anyway. Any idea where I can find reliable source of 6-oxo? There’s a firm called German Pharmaceuticals that sells them online. Can anyone vouch for them?
Very good interview with a fascinating guy. I know you will take a little heat from some parts of interview, but Patrick is the real deal whether you approve of him or not. Peter Attia and Dom were two of your best guests. I heard Patrick talk on a very short podcast and thought at the time he would be a good guest, but I never got around to suggesting him
Don’t we have K TV now. The internet . Supercars .Supermodels . Ect
Drugs in sport . Lets try the drug Olympics . Stop faking it and get on with it. Has our world not evolved .
I’ve not gotten all the way through the podcast yet, but most of it, I wish you had asked if he had tried any of Alexander Shuglin’s compounds? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin
yes, I thought of Shulgin when listening to this as well.
Hi Tim,
I’ll try to keep it short:
1/ As to your question re: self-teaching in chemistry, go for the full thing, just like any undergrad student would. Chemistry is very complex, just like investing, and even if you think you know enough to do it yourself, you still may miss important facts and make huge mistakes.
2/ Chemistry is one thing, administering a compound to someone is another thing. You can’t just rely on the structure of a compound to predict its behaviour in your body. It sounds crazy to me (as a biologist) to expect a compound to be used safely without testing its:
– Pharmacodynamics (PD), i.e. characterising its intended or unintended molecular targets, quantifying its effect, understanding how increasing the dose might change all that and understanding how other drugs or even food could interact with it.
– Pharmacokinetics (PK) i.e. how it’s absorbed, where it goes in the body, where it accumulates, how it’s eliminated, and again, how other drugs or food could interact with it.
– And toxicity, i.e.: what organs could be damaged, at what doses, could it be immunogenic (provoke immunologic reactions), carcinogenic (provoke cancer), genotoxic (damage your DNA), or could it damage your reproductive organs?
One could administer their own compounds to themselves at their own risks, but I really think one should do all that testing before giving synthetic compounds to anybody who might put their health at risk. And even when after studying all that, no one has been able to come up with a perfect drug, that works perfectly and without any side effects. Ever.
Tim, to put it in perspective, you often educate your audience on the dangers of “Bad Science”, that is, people jumping to conclusions or making opinions based on poor scientific evidence. Well, I do not think that disregarding a century of research in biology is any good science.
Let’s think about it for a second. the food and tobacco industries have been rightfully criticised for unscrupulously selling crap to the public for years without proper testing. The pharma industry has been rightfully criticised for many things, including hiding unfavourable results. In this context, how could Patrick’s approach even be compared with Peter Attia’s or Dominic D’Agostino’s rigorous work?
I don’t see anyone comparing me to Peter or Dom. There is no comparison really other than we all share a passion for science and human health and performance . Also, the vast majority of “novel” compounds i made were resurrected ones that at one time had toxicity and efficacy research data with animals that indicated no salient dangers. The only compound i made that had no such data that i can recall was tetrahydrogestrinone
Hi Patrick, Thanks very much for this clarification. If I may ask, how much in vitro or in vivo data on THG did you have at the time people started using it? (in other words, how did you know about its potency and its safety before people actually gave you any feedback?)
Outstanding, loved that. Hardly understood a word of it, way above my head, but had me hooked from the start. Fascinating fella to listen to, and whatnot……
I don’t know why but this is the podcast I have listened to the most and the one I am commenting on first after a long lurk…
I like the honesty of this show, I am fascinated by organic chemistry but I work in entirely different field, design, I just like how chemists can design things that make the body change in certain ways, it’s so fascinating.
I’m a bit different from you guys in that I don’t really want to bulk up, I want to bulk down. I have my body fat at a good ration and feeling pretty fit, I do light exercise and light climbing for strength.
But I want my body to look more feminine. I prefer slender limbs, I like the woman shape with wider hips, I know I’m a total oddball but you gotta expect some of those when you run a fringe science experimentation podcast.
If Patrick could advise what supplements might suit me, I eat a healthy diet including many veggies from the garden, low carbs, add stuff like red clover to my diet all the time, also a wild food fan, love all kinds of wild foods. Actually on that note I’ll give something back right now, St Mary’s Thistle is choc full of testosterone analog, but rather than trying to get that through extracts off the shelf, if you want full blazing HGH like effects, go out into the wild, grab some of these plants (farmers will love you, they regard it as a weed) then put it through a cold pressed juicer and press some pineapple juice or something to sweeten to taste. This is a plant hormone megaload. I do the same with Red Clover, also Bidens Pilosa is well worth trying for total immune system boost, best thing about that one is it grows EVERYWHERE, so finding healthy plants in the city is easy in parks, etc. Seriously, this is top 10 Chinese herbal medicine and they have 1,000’s of herbs so it’s up there, it has approx 200 alkaloids in the one plant.
If you want to learn organic chemistry, check Organic Chemistry As a Second Language by David Klein. It’s 350 pages and half are exercises. I skipped the textbook and only used this book to get an A in Ochem.
I find this topic very interesting as I got really into heavy lifting about 7 month ago. Although I don’t have a desire to take steroids or any other performance enhancing supplements at the moment I wish there was more openness in the community about the sheer volume of people that do. I get tired of seeing all these massive, juiced up men and women on magazine covers and all over Instagram selling protein powders and 7 minute exercises as if doing them for 12 weeks would have anywhere close to the same outcome. If you think doing any of the workout regimes for 12 weeks is gonna have you looking like them, it’s gonna be a long hard road.
Also, what do you think would happen to someone walking onto a football field “natural”? Head removed.
Question for Dr. Arnold:
What is the difference, if any, between Ketone Esters and Ketone Salts?
There is some research showing that BHB salts do not pass the BBB, whereas the D-BHB esters do.
ketone Esters are prodrugs essentially, that have to be hydrolyzed by enzymes in your body called esterases to release the free active ketones. Ketone (bhb) salts are essentially bhb itself. Yes BHB can pass into the brain and they do so via what are know as monocarboxylic transporters. Also I dont think oral ketone esters even make it to the brain before being hydrolyzed to free ketones in-vivo
This guy sounds a bit like Joe Rogan to me.
If we permit performance enhancing drugs in sport, then I think that we should split into another division of sport. Instead of Pro/Am we should have Natural/enhanced. In the Natural division all of the prizes would go to the athletes and in the enhanced division they would go to the controlling chemist.
For non athletes it should be free choice.
At the end of the show he mentions a Caprylic Acid compound at prototypenutrition… also mentions a compound that limits uptake of glucose through the intestine and accelerates excretion through urine. I can’t seem to find either on the site. I would like them available before I place an order as shipping to Canada is a bit pricey. Any updates from him on these?
Keto8 is our caprylic acid product. Our glucose elimination product should be out in 2-4 weeks
You’ve worked out a way to make phlorizin bioavailable?
I’m a pharmacist and hobbyist organic chemist- I’ve tinkered with phlorizin cyclodextrin complexes- but haven’t seen reliable drops in BGLs.
What is the name of the product that does glucose elimination?
Patrick, what is the name of this product? (The glucose Elimination product? Thank you!
Great episode, Tim (and Patrick). I wish there was more like that.
Tim do you take KetoCana every day? or on a regular basis?
Great post.. I am glad to see this post.
Great podcast, as always! I started listening to this Monday morning. Seems like this week is the week of breaking news with respect to PEDs:
– WTA’s Maria Sharapova (and other athletes) & Meldonium
– NHL’s Jarred Tinordi & to be determined PED
As always, amazing interview.
I ordered the ketocana from Arnold’s company and the package came in today. Except the product was not in the package. Hopefully an honest mistake. Now I have to wait an additional three days until I can get a response from them. Super bummed.
You were shipped an empty box? did you contact customer service? I cant see how someone could process an empty box. weird
Yes, contacted customer service so hopefully it works out. Not empty. Got two of the three items on the receipt.
If it will help me live longer and improve the quality of that longer life, I think I would use such supplementation. I’m not an athlete, and never expect to become one.
Patrick Arnold, I won’t forget you, you seem so real and good, not short tempered and arogant, just so interesting and human. Tim thanks for this delicious interview, one of your best. As always, don’t stop.
Don’t use testosterone even though it will give you big muscles and make you virtually irresistible to women – think about the heart attacks and hair loss, or going to jail. Thanks for understanding…
thegreatcourses.com has a class on organic chemistry. It’s 36 30-minute lectures. They’re always having some kind of sale.
Is it possible to go through and edit out all the “what nots?”
Patrick any idea of how long until you have another supply of Ur Spray. Bought 2 and probably should have bought 10.
About two weeks Steve
Great, thanks. Awesome podcast. Look forward to new batch.
Hey Tim,
I’m a little late listening to the show, but was curious whether you, Patrick, or one of your listeners had any thoughts on peptides (specifically BCP 157 or TB-500) for regrowth of articular cartilage. I lost a lot in my ankle and have been looking at the possibility of experimenting with one or both. Keep up the good work, love listening.
One of the most fire episodes for sure. I’m a med student and episodes like this with explanations of mechanisms and research are some of the only ones I can actually believe, especially with all the garbage misinformation out there, such as that from a certain bulletproof exec.
Patrick Arnold is the man. Tim, one of my favorite episodes by far, just like the Dom episode.
Great interview please keep it up!
thanks for making this comment about the bulletproof. gets far too much attention and no objective critique.
after attempting the website and the book I found it to be the most blatant and cringe-worthy example of infotainment/ marketing, substituting for genuine bona fide quality information, I had ever come across. yuck. I was literally nauseous. And no, I hadn’t had the magic drink that day 😉 😉
We need people who know what they are doing to get into the sports supplement area. For example, there is me. I have a PhD in biochemistry, am a professor of human nutrition, I have published many papers on my research in real journals, and I am one of the few professors who closely follows the offerings of the supplement ingredient suppliers. I am close to launching one research based product. It is designed to improve aerobic exercise performance in young adult women (ie. in one study, 1 month of supplementation reduced 3 mile run time by an average of 54 seconds). The product contains no stimulants or even herbs. Unfortunately, most sports nutrition supplements, as well as most sports nutrition advice, is not based on real science.
You should get into the industry however I must warn you that you will be competing against a lot of unscruplous companies who dont sell what is on the label and who use ingredients that are not verified to work or that are underdosed. Everyone works on low margins too
Patrick, I was really impressed with the podcast you did with tim and I am sure it has increased your workload (congratulations and sympathies). I immediately ordered many of your products and have been happy with them. Your staff went out of their way to help me with shipping issues and have been great. However, not long ago I was listening to another podcast from Dave Asprey of Bulletproof which aired April 9th and he was interviewing a person he lauded as the one of the world’s foremost experts on Ketosis Dr. Richard Veech. Veech stated that Ketone salts are ineffective since they do not deliver the correct type of ketone (L vs D) and could be dangerous and possibly cause a Parkinson’s episode. He gets very technical but basically says to stay away from ketone salts. Do his warnings/concerns in your opinion apply to KetoCana and Keto force? I now have 3 containers that I am afraid to use. I would appreciate even a simple answer. I sent this to the contact form on your website but no response – for reference Veech states this at about the 49 minute mark of the podcasts – Thanks
Hi Bob. Veech’s comments make no sense. Most of the medical studies of the past used DL and it has been shown effective and safe. The L isomer has been proven to be metabolized in a similar fashion to the D. Beech has been saying these things for a while now to scare away his competition. His ester is pure D. The Parkinson’s clams are outright wrong and libelous
And Bob, to follow on – while having fat with ones caffeine is good for some people, beyond that I’d advise everyone to avoid Aspreys overt marketing materials masquerading as education. Yuck. i might add no mention is ever made of using ghee instead of butter – probably because there is less profit in it. From all appearances ghee would appear to do everything butter can do in a coffee, and more – for much cheaper. (just be sure to get organic as poisons concentrate in dairy fat)
So anyway what I REALLY came here to write. In Tims excellent Four Hour Body (just so impressed by that book) there is a discussion of the medical applications of steroids far beyond the body building reputation, with some good resources. Page 153 from memory. Tim has all those resources on the site for the book also.
Tim discusses treating HIV/AIDS with steroids. It’s a bit tangential, sorry but i wanted people to consider how much propaganda exists around HIV/AIDS that we’ve been force fed for 20+ years now. There are a LOT of people saying HIV doesn’t kill you – it’s the drug therapy you commit to after being diagnosed that kills you. Interesting twist there. (i don’t mean anabolic steroids) Having HIV alone doesn’t have to mean anything, if you take care of yourself you can live a long normal life just like anyone else. It”s drugs like AZT or whatever actually destroy your immune system and wipe out your t-cells, assuring you a death sentence. There’s a LOT more to the story that isn’t mainstream – the high false positives, no correlation between HIV and AIDS, the fact that AIDS hasn’t been demonstrated to actually exist at all (i defy you to find the scientific papers – they actually don’t exist) – so I encourage you to learn more. The first thing to remember is someone with a diagnosis should AVOID conventional western drug treatment which will rapidly shorten your life and your options, and seek out the abundance of natural self care, long list there! And which steps up to include traditional chinese medicine, and much more. Of which there are countless examples of humans completely curing themselves. How often do you hear people report a full cure from HIV after following the doctors advice? You don’t. Just felt obliged to share that after picking up 4HB for a read and remembering this podcast, this morn 🙂
Thank you Patrick. Thank you Tim.
thank you for this.
a quick web search for ‘The Great HIV hoax’ by Victoria Whitehead reveals a short article explaining this situation with quotes from a good many scientists, journals, doctors and other expert sources all explaining the great many fabrications and lies surrounding the ‘ danger’ of hiv and disputing the actual existence of aids. ‘hiv is barely even a retro virus’ ‘ no test for aids is reliable’ ‘ bit too much to explain in this comments section but I hope this is suitably enlightening for some. Use steroids for other things!!! (there, I’m on topic 😉 😉
I love this episode and the one with Dom D’Agostino.
Outstanding that Patrick has jumped right in to the Q&A down below. I am burning the midnight oil boning up on Ketosis, Ketogenic Diets, Chemistry, Physics, Maths, Ben Franklin,you name it/them.
Keep up the outstanding work fellas. Tim, please interview Jared Diamond.
Jared Diamond would be awesome. Although i only made it 3/4 through guns, germs, and steel
the new glucose eliminator is here! http://prototypenutrition.com/ketoshield.html
That is good news! I picked up a box of keto-diastrips to see if I can get glucose spilling into urine with this stuff.
Just listened to the podcast good stuff, Tim vitamin c registers on blood glucose strips due to the structural similarity, some of the big iv vit c clinics use this as an easy way to measure changes in vit c blood levels.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23885992/
Great post! Thank you for sharing. Hope to hear more from you.
heat transfer fluids. we use this stuff called dynalene HT in our big rotovap. great stuff
I’m a bit behind but wonderful interview Tim and Patrick. I really appreciate you delving into the details.
Tim, if you are looking for a basic organic chemistry course, maybe this is something for you.
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/high-school/foundations-of-organic-chemistry.html
can you answer me is It really a healthy and legal way to gain muscle mass through SARMs?
I couldn’t find any info on the two gentlemen mentioned at 1:04:20. Something like Charles Kochenky and Julius Vita. Could you link me to their work?